The effect of this amended tariff would have been to bar entirely wagon shipments.

Testimony was taken before the public service commission of Pennsylvania. I do not have that here, but if the committee desires I will get copies of that testimony. It showed a decrease of about 50 per cent of the normal number of cars available for coal shipments in the spring of this year. It showed that the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., on its eastern lines, had about 61,500 cars available for coal shipments, which cars made an average of two trips a month. It further showed a considerable increase in wagon-loading cost, that is the demand on wagon loaders for cars which reached its maximum early in the year for one month of 13,000 cars. With the 61,500 cars available, 9,000 were privately owned, the Baldwin White Coal Mining Co. owning about 4,000 to 5,000, and various other companies the remainder. A large number were used for fuel cars by the railroad companies. But the average cars asked for by wagon shippers did not exceed four-tenths of 1 per cent of the available cars. This was regarded as so negligible a quantity that, with other considerations, the public service commission of Pennsylvania dismissed the proposed amendment and later on the railroad company withdrew its proposal before the Interstate Commerce Commission. Another complaint had been filed by wagon shippers. Now the contention of Mr. Large Williams, found in the testimony, the chief and probably the only witness for the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., was that the injection of wagon loading into the coal business decreased the supply owing largely to the length of time required to load cars.

I was attracted by the testimony of some gentleman, the gentleman who testified for the most part here this afternoon, to the effect that it took 10 days to load a car of coal from the wagon. The testimony taken before the public service commission of Pennsylvania in no instance showed five days, in very rare instances showed two days, and the average was one and one-half and two days. It further showed that the shifts made by the railroad company on its sidings into tipple mines were made by placing the cars usually in the evening and drawing them out the next day, and that most of the wagon loaders were able to send their cars out loaded at the same time that the general outgoing train was made up. It showed that very frequently 10 or 12 hours was all that was required, and it further showed as I have an exact list that I happen to have taken from the testimony of the distribution sheets of the Tyrone division of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., beginning October 2, 1916, showing where the real fault, in part, at least, lay in the failure to get coal to market.

On October 2, 1916, 419 steel cars and 19 wooden cars were placedthat is, were put on sidings where tipple owners might get at them305 were accepted that day and 134 were not used. On October 3 403 cars were placed, 35 wooden cars; 209 were used and 105 were empty at the end of the day. On October 4, the day following, 417 steel cars and 27 wooden cars were placed; 112 accepted, 66 not accepted; and I can not account for the remaining cars. On October 5, 418 steel and 35 wooden cars were placed; 244 accepted, 72 empty at the end of the day. October 6, 437 steel cars, 27 wooden; 194 accepted, 57 empty at the end of the day. In November 440 steel cars, 19 wooden cars were placed; 226 accepted, 53 empty at the

end of the day. Shortly after-I do not know the exact date-462 steel cars, 22 wooden cars were placed; 187 accepted, 65 empty, showing that the operators of tipple mines-that is, the large operatorsfor some reason were unable to use all the cars that were furnished them, and these are the identical distribution sheets from the Tyrone division, and we had other sheets there; brought there on subpœna from the Philadelphia office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co.

It was very clearly apparent that one very serious reason for the coal shortage was the shortage of labor. The mines did not have, some of them, within 50 per cent of their labor capacity-that is, the mines were developed to such an extent that they could have employed double the men that they were able to get.

Senator POINDEXTER. What wages were they paying?

Mr. GREER. The scale had not been changed for the spring, but that condition has been much relieved so far as wagons go by the scale; that, I think, went into effect in April. Wages have been increased.

Senator POINDEXTER. What is the wage?

Mr. GREER. I am not able to say that. I think it is 85 cents; I am not sure.

Senator POINDEXTER. Eighty-five cents for what?

Mr. GREER. A ton.

Senator POINDEXTER. How many tons does the average miner mine a day?

Mr. GREER. He ought to mine easily 5 tons under fair conditions. I would say that, and if he had the supply of cars he could keep that up six days a week. It depends upon the thickness of the seam and general working conditions, but 5 tons is not a large output for a miner.

The CHAIRMAN. That would make the day's wage only a dollar and a quarter?

Mr. GREER. I beg pardon; 85 cents a ton.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you said 25 cents.

Mr. GREER. No, sir; these wagon loaders, however, pay on the average $1 a ton, for the reason that many of their men are natives of the neighborhood who, particularly in the winter months, can give their time to digging coal, and in the summer months work on the farms or in some other occupation; and they are men who would not. many of them, the majority of them, work under the conditions that the foreign-born miner works. I mean by that distinctly the housing conditions, the company stores, and the general surroundings of a mining town. They are among the most intelligent of the miners in any region. Nor are these mines simply holes in the ground, as was testified here by an expert, I think this afternoon, ephemeral affairs, nothing of the sort. The testimony-and it is a large volume of testimony-shows that many of these men were engaged in this sort of business-one of them for 16 years, and a number of them for a number of years at a time when coal sold for $1.40 a ton. One man in the town of Clearfield, I think, employed 20 men, had a daily output of 40 tons, yet loaded from wagons. Mr. Hammond, of Bolivar, is under contract with two big plants in the neighborhood in Westmoreland County, of Pennsylvania, and is compelled to load from his mine on wagons. Another gentleman in the Pittsburgh

district, there in the city of Monongahela, owns at least 60 acres of the Pittsburgh seam, which is a very valuable seam of coal. He is obliged to load by wagon. One other man testified, and I do not recall his name, that he owned 175 acres. Many of them said they were able to make contracts at much lower rates than prevailed for the past six months, but the uncertainty of their being able to furnish it made it impossible for them to make term contracts.

As a matter of fact, in Somerset and Cambria Counties, and I believe in a measure in Clearfield County, a great deal of this coal comes from coal reservations. When the Berwin, Peak, and other coal companies, when the Wilmore Coal Co. purchased its lands in Somerset and Cambria Counties, it frequently happened that the farmers reserved around their buildings acreages numbering from 3 to 5. This was just the same coal that the Berwin-White Mining Co. has been shipping for years. When the price of coal reached $2 they were able to mine this coal and deliver it at a profit. More than that the bituminous fields in Cambria, Somerset, and Clearfield, at least, and some other counties contained five veins, two of which are usually mined, the so-called B and C prime seams. The A seam is

so sulphurous that it is only in times like this that it is used to any extent. The D and E are also inferior coal but sell now as readily as any other coal. Many of these wagon shippers are developing a seam-D and E seam-far beyond what they were ever developed before.

The CHAIRMAN. How large is the production of these wagonloading mines?

Mr. GREER. The best way of estimating that is to refer to the testimony before the Pennsylvania Public Service Commission, in which the demand for one month reached a maximum of 1,300 cars.

The CHAIRMAN. How many tons would that be to the car?

Mr. GREER. Fifty tons is the average for a steel car, and the box car is about 35 to 40 tons.

Now, the tipple owner has no time for box cars, because he can not load them at his tipple, therefore to shut off the wagon loader you would shut off that part of the coal production that goes to the market in box cars.

The CHAIRMAN. You say 1,300 cars in a month?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is it they desire in the way of legislation? Mr. GREER. They desire nothing but to be let alone and be given a fair distribution of cars.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they getting a fair distribution of cars? Mr. GREER. I think they are, as far as I know, excepting locally. The CHAIRMAN. Are they getting that under order of the Interstate Commission or by grace of the railroads?

Mr. GREER. They are getting that under their rights as shippers of coal. I heard also this afternoon, and I think you asked the same question which you asked now. In the tenth Interstate Commerce Reports, is a case in point, the Glade Coal Co. That coal company claimed before the Interstate Commerce Commission that it had been discriminated against because the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad required it to pay a little different rate because of its loading its coal on cars from wagons. The case came before the Interstate Com

106986-PT 1-17-20

merce Commission, was very thoroughly argued, and it was decided that it was undue discrimination. The conditions then existing were similar to now-it was after an anthracite coal strike. Following that was the Thompson case, in the same reports, where a contrary opinion was arrived at, but the principle that was set in the Glade Coal Co. case was reaffirmed there, and the Thompson case, I maintain, is not the ruling case.

Under this rule against discrimination the man who loads a car of coal a day is entitled to the same consideration as the man who loads 100 cars, and I will say I believe he is getting it, except in local places, where probably the car distributor is not as careful as he might be.

The CHAIRMAN. If they are getting it then why are they appearing before this committee?

Mr. GREER. I will answer that completely and distinctly. I came here to-day to see what was going on for fear something would be said or something done without our being able to be heard. I heard the thing I feared when your expert testified here that it takes 10 days to load a car by wagon, and I feel called upon to present the record and show he is in error. And when Gov. Fort testified, as I think he did testify, that it requires five or six days to load, I show in the record and show him that he is in error. That is my only excuse for being here.

I attended the meeting of large tipple men, and the spirit of that meeting was splendid, and I was there simply to see what they would do with the little fellows. They did not mention the little fellows.

I could go on at some length, but I think you have probably all that you want. All we ask is that if anything is said against wagon loading that we shall be given our day in court, sir.

There will be found, before the Public Service Commission of Pennsylvania, in File C-1329, 1330, Pennsylvania Wagon Coal Shippers' Association v. Pennsylvania Railroad Co., and File

R-50-70.

I thank you very much, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. We will now adjourn until 10 o'clock a. m. on Friday.

(Thereupon, at 5.30 o'clock p, m., the committee adjourned until Friday, June 29, 1917, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

PRICE REGULATION OF COAL AND OTHER COMMODITIES..

FRIDAY, JUNE 29, 1917.

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2 o'clock p. m., in committee room, Capitol, Senator Charles E. Townsend presiding. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Morrow. STATEMENT OF MR. J. D. A. MORROW, COMMISSIONER PITTSBURGH PRODUCERS' ASSOCIATION, PITTSBURGH, PA.

Mr. MORROW. I represent here the Pittsburg Coal Producers' Association. That is a voluntary organization of coal-mining companies, with mines in the so-called Pittsburgh district, which is the territory adjacent to the city of Pittsburgh, lying southwest and southeast of it, operating mines with an output in 1916 of about 25,000,000 tons.

These hearings, as I understand it, are being held in connection with Senate resolution 77, introduced by Senator Pomerene, looking to governmental control of the mining and distribution of coal, and also in conjunction with some other measures before the Senate which bear on that question.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is your output of your mines; do you know?

Mr. MORROW. The mines in the association in 1916 produced between 24,000,000 and 25,000,000 tons-roughly, 25,000,000 tons. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How does that average with 1915? Mr. MORROW. It was about 10 per cent less in 1915.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you ever produced as much as you did in 1916?

Mr. MORROW. Yes, sir; in 1913 we produced considerably more than

in 1916.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Why did you produce less in 1915 than in 1916.

Mr. MORROW. The reasons were twofold. In the first place, there was a strike during the months of June and the latter part of May, which reduced production somewhat; but a factor which operated' much more to reduce production was a very severe car shortage, a lack of railroad cars to ship coal from the mines, lasting three or four months in the year.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What effort did you make to get cars? Mr. MORROW. This association was not organized until about the ist of this present year. Within a month after it was organized. we: