Mr. MAURER. They deal with people who have no contracts with them, but for some unfortunate reason the people with whom they have contracts can not furnish the coal like they did last winter.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they deal, as a rule, with household consumers? Mr. MAURER. Household consumers are practically taken care of by the local dealers.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not call them jobbers?

Mr. MAURER. Not in that sense; I would not call them jobbers. I would call a jobber a man who buys a carload of coal from me and turns it over to somebody else at a profit or loss. A man who buys a ton of coal and puts it in his yards and distributes it, is a dealer, He has to keep it in stock so that every man who wants coal can get it.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe the high price that prevails generally has been with reference to spot coal.

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir; generally.

The CHAIRMAN. How large a proportion of coal in Ohio during the last three months, in your judgment, has been spot coal?

Mr. MAURER. Oh, I believe if it were honestly distributed there would not be any. There may be a few people who have it. I think the spot coal is coal that some fellow takes out of his other business because he gets a higher price for it. That is not true of everybody. I think practically all the coal, or 90 per cent of the coal, is contracted for.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not the man with whom it is contracted take advantage of the high price and sell to the consumers at such high price?

Mr. MAURER. Oh, no: I do not think anything of that kind happens. I think everybody who has contracted for coal is anxious to get it. They are scared to death all over the country. That is the difficulty to-day. There are two things that enter in, car supply and consternation of the public, a fear.

The CHAIRMAN. But when a dealer in coal in a particular community has a very large contract for the supply of coal from the mine at a moderate rate, we will say $1.50, plus transportation chargesMr. MAURER. He may be both a dealer and a jobber.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not that man, in his relation with his customers, when the rise takes place in spot coal, take advantage of that and charge his customers the increased price?"

Mr. MAURER. I think he does. There is no question but if a dealer should have a sufficient quantity of coal contracted for which is more than sufficient to take care of his daily requirements, or a surplus, he may become a jobber, in the real definition of the term "jobber."

The CHAIRMAN. But even where it is to his regular customer he would be inclined to raise the price?

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir; I do not think there is any question about it. The CHAIRMAN. Now, going back to the operators themselves, do they not all also get the advantage of this high price in spot coal? Mr. MAURER. If they have no contract; yes, sir; but the great difficulty that we have been trying to overcome, and what we are interested in overcoming, is our inability to take care of our contract obligations. Last year I sent a letter to the Steel Corporation in Pittsburgh, explaining why I was not able to give them coal at Loraine

the week before. The explanation was the 14 hours' work on the Pennsylvania Railroad.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been a suggestion in the Senate that the Government should loan the railroads $150,000,000 with a view to securing extra cars and transportation facilities that are needed to meet the requirements of the times. What do you think of that suggestion?

Mr. MAURER. Those are matters that I am not capable of passing upon, and I do not want to. I think we must do something-something constructive must come out of this investigation. It must come. The Interstate Commerce Commission must lay down a rule and it must not be indefinite any longer. It must be done to-morrow, if the public is going to be protected.

Senator SMITH, of South Carolina. May I ask you a question? What increase in the consumption of coal, if any, or what per cent of increase, is due to these war conditions?

Mr. MAURER. Senator, this condition has been going on since last October.

Senator SMITH, of South Carolina. But the point I want to understand clearly is, Has there been any great increase in the consumption of coal in America incident to the war?

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Do you know about what increase?

Mr. MAURER. I can get you those figures.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Well, give me a statement from your own mind.

Mr MAURER. This is the situation: Prior to October, starting last spring and last year, the docks got all the coal they wanted in the Northwest. They were stocked up. There was stock piled all over this country. The condition came on last fall; the car shortage came on and the stock piles have disappeared. Starting with the opening of navigation this spring in the Northwest, the docks were divested. They could not get coal up there. Coal is moved off the docks as fast as it goes on, practically. When we ought to be building up great storehouses in the Northwest, it is going off; the people are consuming it.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. So the condition is not because of any increased consumption of coal, but on account of the inability to mobolize or move your coal?

Mr. MAURER. I think you have it right. That is practically the real proposition. If we can produce that 600,000,000 tons of coal, I believe we can take care of this country. I believe if we can put another 100,000,000 or 200,000,000 on top of it, our people will do their duty.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Now, as you have practically no appreciable increase in consumption of coal and the distressing conditions that now prevail are due to a lack of transportation facilities, why this tremendous increase in the price of coal? I ask for this reason: Ordinarily, the operation of the law of supply and demand, it seems to me, would produce a lower price rather than a higher.

Mr. MAURER. Never, when everybody is scrambling for coal.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. They are scrambling for coal, but not at the mines.

Mr. MAURER. Oh, yes; they are. That is the truth.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Then, there is an increased production.

Mr. MAURER. The stock piles have gone.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. I am not talking about stock piles.

Mr. MAURER. Do not misunderstand me. You asked me how much and I said I did not know. Please get me clearly. I said that last year we had great stock piles all over this country and that those had all been depleted; they are gone; they are not there any more. There has been a tremendous increase of consumption. While production has not increased materially, the consumption has.

Senator SMITH, of South Carolina. That is the point I want to get at. I wanted to know if you had an increased consumption and could establish that fact, causing a consequent depletion, with working the mines to their capacity and depleting what you call your stock piles, that might in some way explain the matter, but your answer to my question was that it was largely due to the lack of transporting facilities. Now, down in our country, with other matters, whenever we have a congestion of transporting facilities the price goes down, because we have the stuff and can not very well dispose of it, and we have to dispose of it in the best way we can. Now, if it is due to increased consumption I think this committee ought to know that it is due to the increased consumption of coal.

Mr. MAURER. I supposed everybody knew that, Senator. I said I did not know how much. The fact that the great stock piles of this country are all used up for the next year shows that there has been a tremendous increase of consumption. Ordinarily, the docks in the Northwest go over with two or three million tons of coal into the spring. We do not get the cars; that is the trouble.

Senator SMITH, of South Carolina. That comes right back to my original proposition. If you do not get the cars you do not ship the coal. The scarcity of coal is not due to the inability to supply the demand in the mining of coal potentially but is due entirely to the lack of transportation facilities.

Mr. MAURER. That is exactly what I have been trying to explain. The cars that they have left after they have supplied other industries are distributed pro rata among the mines. They put you on a 30 per cent basis, or a 40 per cent or 50 per cent basis. The mines in Ohio have been running for the last six months on less than a 50 per cent basis of commercial business.

Senator SMITH, of South Carolina. Then, if we had ample car facilities there would not be this high-priced coal?

Mr. MAURER. If we have ample coal facilities we can cover this country with coal, and that will take care of the price.

Senator CUMMINS. But we have not the car facilities, and they can not be added immediately, I suppose.

Mr. MAURER. Can they not be distributed equitably?

Senator CUMMINS. I think a great deal can be done toward distribution. I understand that that is a matter now with the Interstate Commerce Commission, and that that commission is given absolute comprehensive power in that respect.

Mr. MAURER. Let it be soon, Senator; it must be done.

Senator THOMPSON. Did I understand you to say that there would only be 10 per cent shortage in cars if they were equitably distributed?

Mr. MAURER. Yes. Those are Senator Pomerene's figures; not mine.

Senator THOMPSON. Do you understand that to be the fact?
Mr. MAURER. I do not know about that.

Senator MCLEAN. You say these stock piles are cleared. Is that coal consumed, or has it been transferred somewhere else? Mr. MAURER. No, sir; it is consumed.

The CHAIRMAN. I will state to the committee that I have received word from Commissioner Davies of the Federal Trade Commission that Commissioner Colver of the same commission is here. He has made a special study of this question, and we all know that the Federal Trade Commission has made a report regarding it. Is it the pleasure of the committee to hear Mr. Colver now or at some later hour?

Mr. MAURER. Mr. Chairman, I would be only too glad to have that done, because I had a talk with the chairman of that commission, and I know they have been trying to solve the problem, and I have no doubt they can give you some advice that will be much better than mine. I only desired to get the facts before you with respect to the condition that exists. I have tried to do it in the best way I possibly could.

The CHAIRMAN. We will hear Commissioner Colver, then, and you may be recalled later.

Mr. MAURER. I will say that I am on that other committee that is holding a session, but I will be glad to come back next week.

The CHAIRMAN. If you are here we will call upon you.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. While we are discussing the price of coal, I will say that Senator Overman handed me a telegram this morning and asked me to read it to the committee and have it made part of the record. With the permission of the committee I will read it now. It is as follows [reading]:

Senator LEE S. OVERMAN,

Washington, D. C.:

GREENSBORO, N. C., June 27, 1917.

Understand House and Senate have committee hearings with coal producers. Would ask that you advise committee our situation here. Last year's contract with the Stonega Coke & Coal, Big Stone Gap, Va., was at $1.50 per ton. Unable to obtain delivery of coal on our contract, forcing us to buy in the open market at from $4.25 per ton up. Have at present in bunkers at Greensboro and Salisbury not over one week's supply of coal. Mines advise us unable to make shipment. Situation serious now. Will be much more serious during wintertime. Doubt our ability to operate during winter months on account of lack of coal. N. C. PUB. SERVICE.

Mr. MAURER. Outside of the fact that the coal company has fallen down in its contract, they have explained the situation with reference to the coal industry in that telegram. You have got to do something or you are going to suffer.

I thank you, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. William B. Colver will next be heard.

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM B. COLVER, MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. COLVER. As you know, Mr. Chairman, the Federal Trade Commission has been engaged on this coal matter for months. During that time hundreds of witnesses have been examined, and thousands of miles of travel have been accomplished by the agents and experts of the commission, and by the commission itself. Hearings have been held in many cities.

In one particular case, the case of Indiana, a working arrangement has been entered into between the governor of the State and his public-service commission and the other State agencies, so that there within the last three weeks a sort of demonstration of a trying out of the plans we have suggested has been possible to be made. I will come to the Indiana situation a little bit later, and I will be just as brief as I can.

In the things I am going to say I am not going to be so restrained, perhaps, as to be sure that I am reciting the opinion of the commission. I mean I shall be free to express my opinion, but I find that the commission is in practical accord, starting in with various ideas and some various preconceived notions, the commission during all these months have practically unanimously worked out a common agreement, so I think I shall represent fairly the sense of the commission in what I shall say.

To begin with, the commission protests against the use of the term car shortage." We do not believe that a car shortage exists, of necessity. That one exists in the coal trade is true. That one need to exist with present equipment we do not believe.

Quoting from Senator Pomerene's figures, adopting them, there are 2,750,000 cars in the country. At the greatest point of shortage, the shortage indicated was 170,000 cars, or about 5 per cent. There is a waste in the use of railroad equipment and rolling stock close up to 20 per cent, and that is traced to perhaps three primary causes. will only speak to-day in generalities, then I shall be glad to submit to questions as to more specific things.

I

You have 2,750,000 cars. It is true, of course, that a very large proportion of those are not coal cars. Confining ourselves to coal cars, let me go back; let us get this right from the beginning. The production of the coal mine is limited absolutely in the presence of labor by the supply of cars. No matter how good a mine a man has, and no matter how many men willing to work he may have, he can only send down into the mine each morning that number of men who will be able to fill the empty cars which have been drawn up during the night at the mouth of the mine. To do more is waste, and it is an impossibility. I speak now particularly of bituminous mines. Bituminous mines, because of their great output and for other reasons, can not have storage capacity at the mine. If they could have, it is too late now to do it; but they have not got it, and it can not be provided this summer, Mr. Chairman. Now, then, the production of coal in the country in perfectly good mines, which may be economically produced and with the application of the labor which now stands ready to go into those mines, the production of coal can be increased not less than 40 per cent. If the production of coal in this country