Senator POMERENE. Just one moment. ideas. The law was changed on May 29?

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir.

Let us not confuse our

Senator POMERENE. Before that there was some question as to what jurisdiction the Interstate Commerce Commission had on the subject of car movements, and by a vote of four to three they held they had that power. Lawyers will agree that there was room for honest difference of opinion, whatever their opinions may have been. That led to a change in the legislation and now the Interstate Commerce Commission has full power over that subject.

Mr. MAURER. Very good. And they have a half a dozen cases pending. There is a case that was tried eight weeks ago; started last November. They have the Consolidation Case against the B. & O. Railroad, and they have the case against the L. & N. Those cases have all been tried. Now, let us have a decision rendered as to the rights of the railroads over the distribution.

Senator POMERENE. There is no question about the authority of the commission in the matter at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you attribute this shortage to the increased production of the mines or to the fact that the car supply itself is inadequate?

Mr. MAURER. There is the rankest discrimination between the coal mines and other industries that was ever practiced in a country on God's footstool.

The CHAIRMAN. And the discrimination, you urge, exists in favor of those mines that furnish the railroads with coal?

Mr. MAURER. There is no question about that, but I refer to all other industries.

The CHAIRMAN. There is also a discrimination besides all that. I can understand why the railroads, knowing that their operations depend on the supply of coal, would be very eager to get a supply of coal from the mines that had contracts with them, because their operation depends on the execution of those contracts, but, outside of that, do you know of any discrimination that exists that has not that motive at the base?

Mr. MAURER. Mr. Chairman, just let me cite an illustration. I desire to call your attention to one fact. Supposing the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. should say we need cars, we need steel, we need iron, we will run the manufacturing institution on our road that will produce stuff for us and shut down every other industry. Would the public stand for that for a moment? Yet that is what they do with the coal mines.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you claim there are not enough cars to go around, to supply all industries?

Mr. MAURER. There are enough cars, but what I am complaining of is that there is a condition in this country to-day that the things we need are food and fuel; they are both on the same basis, and something must be done or the public will suffer for the lack of those two commodities. There is no question about it.

The CHAIRMAN. But you realize that so far as the railroads are concerned, outside of the question of discrimination, it would be a very proper thing for them, if they had only a limited number of cars, to see to it that those cars were supplied to the mines that were furnishing them with coal?

Mr. MAURER. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. You realize, do you not, that if they did not run their trains, that no cars would be carried?

Mr. MAURER. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. And the requirements would not be met at all. Mr. MAURER. Certainly, but my contention is that the railroads are treating us unfairly. They pay no attention to the requests or the orders of the Government; some of them have I would not say all of them have not, but if you put it on this basis, say to them that they shall treat every industry in the way the railroads are treated with respect to fuel, the public will be taken care of.

I should like to read a letter that I wrote before the war was declared. It was a letter which was written to G. L. Peck, of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., and is dated February 23, 1917. I wrote as follows (reading):

G. L. PECK,

Fourth Vice President the Pennsylvania Co.,

Pittsburgh, Pa.

FEBRUARY 23, 1917.

DEAR SIR: I desire to call your attention to the condition the coal industry is getting into on account of the inability of the railroads to take care of anything like a reasonable amount of coal. While your road is practically doing better than any other, especially in this State, yet the average supply of cars of all the roads will run around from 40 to 50 per cent.

This condition has brought coal to almost prohibitive price. It has reached a point beyond the means of the ordinary consumer and will bring serious results unless some united effort is made by the railroads to remedy the situation. While we are in the coal business and at all times like to see a fairly remunerative price, yet I do not believe it is to the advantage of the coal industry or any other industry to have a condition brought about that means ruination to industries and individuals, and unless something is done to correct the situation this will be the result.

The coal mine has always carried the burden of car shortages.

All plants

and industries, or practically all of them, on the lines of your road, and all other roads, are running 100 per cent time or nearly that, and many of them 24 hours a day. These plants are not producing the things that are necessary to the very existence of our people.

Let me suggest that in the end the results will be much better if the production of the plants referred to is limited to such an extent that the coal mine can produce something like a normal supply of coal. I realize that one railroad can not do this alone, but your road is large enough to set the example for the other railroads, or at least could get them together and devise some means of relieving this situation. I trust that something can be done.

Yours, very truly.

Senator POMERENE. Who is Mr. Peck?

Mr. MAURER. He is the fourth vice president of the Pennsylvania Railroad.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you get a reply to that?

Mr. MAURER. I did not. I have correspondence here this last week calling attention to the deplorable condition into which we are brought. Permit me to read this telegram [reading]:

J. J. TURNER,

MAY 15, 1917.

First Vice President the Pennsylvania Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.: Realizing the importance of getting coal to the Northwest, we reserved practically our entire tonnage at Rush Run for lake shipments. We have been willing to do our share toward helping out this situation. Last week we had a 31 per cent car supply on your road at this mine, and this week but little

better.

If this situation continues, price of coal will be $10 per ton. The Pennsylvania supply is the lowest of any road at this time. Kindly wire what we may expect.

Here is another one [reading]:

C. E. MAURER,

C. E. MAURER, President the Glens Run Coal Co.

PITTSBURGH, PA., May 17.

President the Glens Run Coal Co., Cleveland, Ohio:

Your message 15th to Mr. Turner: Investigation discloses that your Rush Run Mine for the week ending May 17 received 3 per cent less than the percentage of cars furnished for the C. & P. division as a whole. This was due to the fact that your mine received more cars the preceding week. Your company is receiving its proper proportion of available cars. We are doing our best to increase the supply in this district.

G. L. PECK.

That does not answer the purpose. A 30 per cent car supply is not going to relieve this country.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by a 30 per cent car supply? Mr. MOORE. It means that we work eight hours a day. That is our term of work.

The CHAIRMAN. What could it be 24 hours?

Mr. MAURER. No; there is no question about the employees. Our employees are willing to come to the rescue.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you work in shifts?

Mr. MAURER. We could if it was necessary for the production of this country, but it is not the custom.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it customary to work in two shifts?

Mr. MAURER. No, sir. They can not

The CHAIRMAN. I mean to say, if the car shortage were removed, what would be the hours of work then?

Mr. MAURER. As the president of the United Mine Workers said, "If they give these mines consideration we will cover the United States a foot thick with coal." He says literally-literally is wrongbut that he can furnish this country with all the coal the country needs and all the coal the allies need.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that the contention of the railroads in this matter is that the war has thrown upon them a largely increased tonnage, beyond their existing car capacity. They also claim that the cost of cars has doubled. They also claim that the rates remain the same; that the condition of railway finances is not good, the Government is in the market and it is very difficult for them to raise the money, and they are insisting upon an increase of rates in order to, as they say, meet the requirements of the business of the country. They have not got the cars now. Now, what method do you suggest as a proper method of enabling them to get the cars?

Mr. MAURER. The fact of the matter is that they have their increase in rates. They puffed up their price on coal 15 cents a ton on the 15th of April to the Lakes. Yesterday their price went up again. on commercial coal, and, as I understand, the price of West Virginia coal is still 15 cents a ton more.

The CHAIRMAN. Was this increase in rates of coal by the coal operators?

Mr. MAURER. No, sir. I went before the Interstate Commerce Commission and testified. We admitted that we did not know anything

about rates, but we called attention to the discrimination in rates, and at the hearing the examiner, at least, recommended that the rate be increased on the differential from 25 to 40 cents a ton.

The CHAIRMAN. Have the jobbers generally opposed this increase of rates proposed by the railroads, do you know?

Mr. MAURER. I could not say. We have been fighting the differentials.

The CHAIRMAN. Take the mining industry as a whole, has it been fighting against any increase of rates for the transportation of coal? Mr. MAURER. Directly, yes; indirectly, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Directly, yes; but indirectly, no?

Mr. MAURER. Yes; that may seem like a queer statement. We have said to the railroads time and again-I am speaking of the Ohio situation-" gentlemen, we know nothing about your rates, but if you charge us $1 a ton to haul coal to Toledo, and charge a return of 25 cents for hauling it 300 miles from your roads, either our rates are too high or the other fellow's too low." That is our attitude.

There is a case pending before the commission now, but the commission has not as yet handed down a decision. I understand it will do so to-day.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, as a rule, I understand the shippers are opposing this increase of rates.

Mr. MAURER. I have given you the exact situation. I have been through it for years.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, assuming the Interstate Commerce Commission does not make any increase in rates; what method do you suggest of enabling these railroads to order cars to meet their requirements? Mr. MAURER. They have granted it; the rates are in effect-15 cents a ton on lake coal.

The CHAIRMAN. But that is only with reference to one particular commodity. I am speaking of the general increase of rates which they are endeavoring to accomplish.

Mr. MAURER. I would not go into that. I simply know about the coal situation.

The CHAIRMAN. You realize that the car can not remain here?
Mr. MAURER. I understand that.

The CHAIRMAN. Has your industry ever taken up the situation in a helpful way, as to how the question of financing could be met that would enable these railroads to be furnished quickly all the cars they require when the cars cost twice as much as they did before, in nor

mal times?

Mr. MAURER. I am afraid, as a coal operator, to offer suggestions to the railroads. It would be considered an unwarranted interference. No, sir; I have not done anything of that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not see why the coal industry should not be so organized as to have a committee that could intelligently take hold of that single question with the executive committee of the railroads. Mr. MAURER. We would be only too glad to do anything we could. The CHAIRMAN. And at the same time it ought to be taken up in a helpful way rather than a denunciatory way. The one thing I have to criticise about your apparent attitude is that you are denouncing these men for not having cars, for not meeting the requirements, when we know there is a car shortage and they have not the cars that they require. It requires money and time to get cars.

Mr. MAURER. No, sir; you are misconstruing what I said.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to call your attention to the importance of organizing a committee of capable men to meet with this executive committee of the railroads and to suggest some solution of the question, and if legislation is necessary in order to carry out that solution, suggesting to us the necessary legislation.

Mr. MAURER. Senator, the fact of the matter is that the coal car has been taken out of the coal trade. There are plenty of coal cars. This country is full of coal cars, but the coal car is being used to handle automobiles and to handle this industry and that industry. THE CHAIRMAN. And the cars are taken to supply munitions of

war.

Mr. MAURER. I do not know about that. I think probably the flat gondola is used for that purpose, but I do not know whether it is or not. We do not see any flat gondolas. The hopper-bottom car is the coal car to-day; the gondola has gone. We see it once in a while.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to say that these hopper bottom cars are used for automobiles?

Mr. MAURER. I do not know whether they are or not. I know that as to the gondola coal car you do not see it any more.

The CHAIRMAN. It is used for other freight purposes?

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir; for any purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever inquired whether such freight may not be as assential as the carriage of coal?

Mr. MAURER. I am not objecting to the railroads running any industry that is necessary on the same basis, but the unfortunate thing is just as I wrote to Mr. Peck, the only real industry in this country is the coal mine. It is the "goat." The other industries have been running 100 per cent time, and we have got to go down. The CHAIRMAN. But, as I understand it, this extraordinary inadequacy of transportation has been caused by the very large increase in transportation, and that large increase consists mainly of supplies that are intended for the conduct of this war. Now, we all realize, do we not, that that is the supreme thing of the time-the supreme consideration of the time?

Mr. MAURER. This war was not going on, as far as we are concerned, three months ago; it was not a condition that then existed. The CHAIRMAN. But it was going on in those sections that were furnishing munitions and supplies to the warring nations?

Mr. MAURER. Yes, sir; we were furnishing supplies, working at a 100 per cent capacity, 24 hours a day. That has been going on, but how are the coal mines going to provide the people of this country with coal if you make the coal buyer bear the burden, and that is what is going on.

The CHAIRMAN. It is very clear that the necessaries ought to be supplied first.

Mr. MAURER. Is it not absolutely apparent to the members of this committee that the coal mine is bearing the burden? When they are short of cars they cut down the coal mines. They do not shut down the steel mills, and they do not shut down anything else.

The CHAIRMAN. I presume the reason for cutting that down is because it is less remunerative than other freight. Is that not it? Mr. MAURER. I would not even make that charge. It may be true, but I will say that they cut it down-and they have been doing it