to hammer on and to talk about all the time, and never can let up on, because the supply of cars by the railroad is just as essential as the supply of mine cars in the mines. Unless we can unload our mine cars into coal cars after they are loaded at the mines, there is no use of loading the mine cars; and while the percentage is coming up on some roads at times for instance, our Hocking Valley Railroad always supplies the best percentage of cars under any circumstancesyet there are days on which they fall down, and parts of days on which they fall down, and days on which they count 100 per cent car supply; for instance, they will get the cars there half an hour late, and the miners will not wait for cars. If the cars are not there when the miners are ready to work in the morning, they go away, because they do not know when those cars are coming. They have been promised in the past about those things, and they trust no man's promise; and if the cars are not there they walk away, and cars are 100 per cent on that day.

Senator POMERENE. Has that been the prevailing condition for several years?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Oh, yes, sir; that is not new.

Senator POMERENE. That is not extraordinary or since January 1? Mr. MCKINNEY. No; nothing extraordinary; but under such stress of times as these it is a woeful waste of equipment.

Senator POMERENE. There is no doubt about that.

Mr. MCKINNEY. And in cooperation with the railroads and I will in connection with anything that I have to say relative to the railroads, and as to the equipment, that I believe they are doing all they can to move their equipment to the best of their ability, but they are not doing it for the coal industry; they are moving all of their freight, and the coal industry has not been getting its proportion. Senator POMERENE. It is very much improved now, however. Mr. MCKINNEY. It is improving somewhat. The Pennsylvania Railroad this last week in our district will be about 50 per cent on the car supply for this week; the Baltimore & Ohio has improved; the Hocking Valley has improved some. We have lost a couple of days.

Senator POMERENE. I do not understand that statement. I read into the record this morning a letter from Gen. Hughes saying the Hocking Valley and the T. & O. C. had 100 per cent car supply, and that the situation was improving on other roads.

Mr. MCKINNEY. There is not any question but that it is improving, but the 100 per cent can only apply to some specific day, and it can not be written in as a general condition. In that connection we have been cooperating with the railroads in every way. We have formed a pool at the Lake.

Mr. TURNER. Explain that pool.

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; if I may. We have formed a pool of Lake coal. Last year we had 20 classifications at the Lake. That is to say, all of our shippers, or each of our shippers, had different classifications of coal. Each was kept in its little pocket by itself, and when each of these pockets had enough to load a vessel, that vessel would go up the Lake. Consequently, they would hold the cars to that extent. The shippers on the Hocking Valley got together and eliminated 19 of those classifications and made only one pool of coal,

and that is domestic lump coal. That has decreased the cars necessary to handle our Lake business about one-half. We can handle that Lake business with about one-half the equipment we formerly required. That can be verified from our records and can also be verified from the records of the Hocking Valley Railroad.

Now, there is one thing that has grown up in connection with that, however. While we are doing our best at that end and the Hocking Valley is doing the best at their end to save the switching movement of locomotives and to save the cars, etc., they are going to the other end and being dissipated through the various wagon mines there on the various switches. I hold in my hand a list of 80 wagon mines on the Hocking Valley Railroad, each demanding cars, which the Hocking Valley Railroad can not refuse, putting them in on the switches. There are the names and the switches on which those mines are located and to which they deliver. Some are within a few hundred feet or a thousand feet of the switch and some are 1 mile away. They are absorbing not only the cars, but absorbing every horse and every wagon that could be used for agricultural purposes and for every other purpose in that district. Seven dollars and a half a day is what those fellows are paying for wagons to haul that coal to those cars. Now, those cars could all be loaded without any trouble and without any delay.

Mr. TURNER. Do you know anything about the price of that coal? Mr. MCKINNEY. No.

Mr. TURNER. That is spot coal, is it not?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; that is all sold as spot coal at the best price they can get on the market, and, of course, I do not know anything about the price, except from rumor.

Mr. TURNER. But it is spot coal?

That is

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; and it is all sold at high prices; and they have to be high prices in order to pay for all this expense. It is all run-of-mine coal. It is not selected coal, such as you will find on these sheets of ours and such as we are trying to prepare. aiding not only in dissipating the car supply, but it is taking away from us the miners who have to work by hand mining and taking them out of places where those same miners could produce two or three times the amount of coal that they do.

Senator POMERENE. You may put that list in the record.
Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes, sir.

(The list referred to above is here printed in full, as follows:)

List of wagon mines on Hocking Valley Railway.

Martin & Hyde. Kriegs switch.
Windon & Smith, Kriegs switch.
Lewis & Kepler, Kriegs switch.
Graham & Smith, Kriegs switch.
James Bayles, Kriegs switch.
Dr. Dew, Lamss switch.
Tom Auflick, Lamss switch.
Bower Bros., Lamss switch.
C. W. Jumper, Foundry track.
Graham & Rosser, Foundry track.
David Harper, Foundry track.
J. M. Thompson, Foundry track.
Mr. Dresher, Factory No. 2.

Wm. Coakley, Factory No. 2.
Ed. Fisk, Factory No. 2.
Lewis Skiver, Factory No. 2.
Chas. Houtner, Factory No. 2.

Bert. Coakley, Hocking Valley Fire
Clay Co.

Lon. Coakley, Hocking Valley Fire
Clay Co.

Fred Freer, Hocking Valley Fire Clay

Co.

Tom Wallace, Buchtel House.
John Wagener, Buchtel House.
Whitmore, Buchtel House.

McKee, Doanville House.

O. Morgan, Doanville House.
Jas. Brady, Buchtel Siding.

Johnson & Keeting, Brewery track.
Welch & Everly, Carbon Hill House
track.

Briggs Coal Co., Carbon Hill House track.

Cook Coal Co., Carbon Hill House track.

Danes Coal Co., Carbon Hill House track.

Emrick, Greendale siding.

M. & M. Coal Co. (Vansickle), Murray
City siding.

V. A. Chute, Sycamore Spur.

P. Bitner, Sycamore Spur.
James Phoenix, New Straitsville.
Chas. Hutchinson, New Straitsville.
D. M. Moodie, New Straitsville.
Davis Coal Co., Webb Summit.
H. V. Products Co., Gore.
Robert Todd, Starr.
John Ogg, Starr.

Bert. Chambers, Starr.
Wm. Crow, Elk Fork.
W. B. Lyons, McArthur.
F. E. Bolar, McArthur.
J. S. Morgan, McArthur.
Roberts Coal Co., Wellston.
East End Coal Co., Wellston.
Geo. Lambert, Minerton.
Charley Janes, Minerton.
Geo. W. Lang, Hawks.
J. W. Bishop, Hawks.
W. R. Hartley, Hawks.
C. E. West, Hawks.
P. J. Carpenter, Hawks.
Shafer Coal Co., Hawks.

Hawks Hill Coal Co., Hawks.

Radcliff C. & M. Co. (2), Radcliff.
Kauff Bros., Middleport.

COLUMBUS, OHIO, June 20, 1917.

Carson & Johnson, Middleport.
Wm. Priode, Middleport.
Jas. Karr, Middleport.
R. E. Powell, Middleport.
K. M. Hoover, Middleport.
M. C. Hobart, Middleport.
Emil Sauer, Middleport.
S. M. Russell, Middleport.
Jas. Salisbury, Middleport.
Jasper Lambert, Middleport.
C. W. Rife, Cheshire.
Herb Rife, Cheshire.
Amos Rife, Cheshire.
Wm. Rife, Cheshire.
O. W. Roush, Cheshire.
H. McCarty, Cheshire.
S. M. Lucky, Cheshire.
Howard Shuler, Cheshire.
C. A. Bradbury, Cheshire.
J. B. Swisher, Cheshire.
Asa Folden, Cheshire.
E. Story, Cheshire.
Arthur Rife, Cheshire.
Elias Sims, Cheshire.
Wm. Hines, Pomeroy.
Wm. Hoover, Pomeroy.
P. L. Peoples, Pomeroy.
P. Fick, Pomeroy.

Hennessey & Durst, Pomeroy.
Schwegman & Farris, Pomeroy.
Roush & Elberfeld, Pomeroy.
Kasper & Werry, Pomeroy.
Stone & Shoemaker, Pomeroy.
J. Curtis, Pomeroy.
Ray Folmer, Pomeroy.
Esta Hines, Pomeroy.
Theo. Fisher, Pomeroy.

Geo. Ebersbach, Pomeroy.
Russell, Pomeroy.

Emil Sawyer, Pomeroy.
Collins, Pomeroy.

C. P. TORREY, Superintendent Car Service.

Senator POMERENE. You mean that those miners could produce more coal in the old mines than they can in these small mines? Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Senator POMERENE. Let me ask you another question on that: What wages do those miners get in those small mines?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Various wages, Senator. I understand that they are paying them a bonus of about 20 to 25 per cent over what they get in the other mines.

Senator POMERENE. That is, over the regular prices in your mines? Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; and they give them steady employment. Senator POMERENE. How long are these cars retained at these small mines, of which you are speaking?

Mr. MCKINNEY. From one to four or five days.

Senator POMERENE. Do you mean that new switches have been run into these mines from the trunk line?

Mr. MCKINNEY. No, sir.

Senator POMERENE. Put on a siding and hauled how far? Mr. MCKINNEY. It is simply put on a siding and is hauled, as I say, from a few hundred or a thousand feet up to two or three miles, or more, over the hills. Some of them are so far away that they lay between the Hocking Valley and the T. & O. C. They get a car on the T. & O. C. to-day and one on the Hocking Valley to-morrow, and they will haul it whichever way they can get it.

Senator POMERENE. The list which you have introduced is that of mines on the Hocking Valley alone?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. Where did you get those?

Mr. MCKINNEY. From the office of superintendent of car service of the Hocking Valley Railroad. It is an authentic list.

Mr. TURNER. I will say that Mr. Caples, vice president of the Hocking Valley Railroad, said at lunch a few days ago there was no secrecy about it; we were all sitting around a table-that they had cut the wagon mines out, notwithstanding the liability of violation of the law at this time; but the operators down there insist that they are not cut out, so there is some lack of cooperation at some place between the vice president of the railroad and the men that are setting the cars.

Mr. MCKINNEY. There are some 25 wagon mines on the K. & M. in Ohio.

Senator POMERENE. Mr. Caples is a very capable man.

Mr. TURNER. Oh, yes; Mr. Caples is a very capable man and a very estimable gentleman, and I do not want to cast the slightest reflection upon Mr. Caples, but I simply say what he said has been done is denied by the men down there.

Mr. MCKINNEY. As I say, there are 25 of them on the K. & M. in Ohio-that is, wagon mines-and I have no idea how many there are in the Crooksville district. All I have before me is a letter, which I had no idea I could bring here at this time, from Mr. Timmons, of the Zanesville Coal Co., complaining that last week 21 of his miners left one of his mines to go to the wagon mines in that vicinity.

Senator POMERENE. Who are the Ohio Coal Bureau in Columbus? Mr. MCKINNEY. The Ohio what?

Senator POMERENE. The Ohio Coal Bureau?

Mr. MCKINNEY. You mean the bureau of railroad statistics? Senator POMERENE. No, sir; I mean the bureau there, or some organization called "The Ohio Coal Bureau"?

Mr. MCKINNEY. I do not know.

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Maher may know.

Senator POMERENE. Mr. Schimanski, of Cleveland, is secretary of it.

Mr. TURNER. I do not believe Mr. Schimanski is connected with the coal business, is he?

Senator POMERENE. Yes; he is connected with the coal business in some way. I do not know how.

Mr. TURNER. I mean with the operators-the miners.

Senator POMERENE. He wired me about it, and I rather thought he would be here to-day. It says, "The Ohio Coal Bureau, O. K. Schimanski, secretary."

Mr. MCKINNEY. O. K. Schimanski is secretary of the Ohio State Board of Commerce. That is the only way I know of him.

Senator POMERENE. He was, I know, and he may be now. You know nothing about that, then?

Mr. MCKINNEY. No, sir.

Senator POMERENE. Have you coal operators got a bureau or some sort of central organization?

Mr. BARKER. Senator, the organization is the one that Mr. McKinney is commissioner of, known as the Southern Ohio Coal Exchange, representing the operators in the four districts which Mr. McKinney named at the beginning of his statement. The Southern Ohio Coal Exchange is the name of the organization.

Mr. TURNER. And various operators belong to this exchange. Senator POMERENE. What is the modus operandi of this exchange? Mr. MCKINNEY. I can better answer that by stating that my business is that of an industrial engineer or business doctor, who has spent a large part of his time or a great deal of time in railroad service and general industrial service, in investigating the coal business, and we attempt to handle there everything that the coal industry has in common with each other, the same as other businesses do. One of the first things in our articles of purpose, and I think I have a copy of it here, if it would be of use in your record

Senator POMERENE. Very well, just put it in the record.

(The document referred to above is here printed in full, as follows:)

SOUTHERN OHIO COAL OPERATORS' EXCHANGE.

DECLARATIONS OF PURPOSES.

Whereas cooperative effort on the part of the coal operators in the southern Ohio fields is deemed essential to

The proper conservation of the coal deposits.

Cooperation with public officials.

The establishment and maintenance of proper reciprocal relations with the citizens of the mining communities and with the users of Ohio coal.

The prompt, proper, and equitable adjustment of all questions that may arise with employees and with those who represent employees.

The inspection of mines and mining equipment for the purpose of avoiding accidents and deaths.

The reclamation of natural markets for Ohio coal and the retaining of such markets when reclaimed.

The ascertainment and compilation of data directly and indirectly bearing upon the production, transportation, and marketing of competing coals. The ascertainment and installation of uniform cost-keeping methods and uniform and improved accounting systems.

The ascertainment and lowering of production costs.
The establishment of bureaus of publicity and sale.

The establishment and maintenance of proper relations between the carriers and the coal-producing companies, including the ascertainment of facts and the compilation and distribution of data and statistics relating to transportation charges from the several coal fields to the markets.

The maintenance of a satistical bureau in order that operators may have at their command full and complete data relating to the cost and conditions of transportation, market conditions, and the prices and terms at which coal is marketed from the several districts.

The encouragement and fostering of the general welfare of the Ohio coalmining industry. And

Whereas it is believed that the reciprocal exchange of information relating to mining conditions and the systematic compilation and distribution of data relating to the production, transportation, and marketing of coal will be beneficial to operators;