the boxes because it is unsolicited. Of course, that is a third force and that is the biggest of all forces, the public force.

Mr. DOHERTY. That is correct.

Senator YARBOROUGH. But I have a question. You mentioned 21⁄2 cents. Is 21⁄2 cents a piece the minimal rate for this commercial so-called junk mail?

Mr. DOHERTY. That is my understanding, Senator Yarborough. Senator YARBOROUGH. That rate is not always printed on the container or envelope?

Mr. DOHERTY. No, because of the postage meter and the permits that are involved in the use of this mail.

Senator YARBOROUGH. It says "postage paid" or something like that.

Mr. DOHERTY. Yes. That is under the meter system and under the permit system used in postal operations. But it is paid. In fact, in most cases the money is paid in advance.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I am under the impression that the mail carries the legend on the face "Permit so-and-so, postage paid." Mr. DOHERTY. That is correct.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I think the recipients are under the impression that is it being carried for practically nothing. If the recipient saw that the Government was getting 21⁄2 cents or 3 cents or 31⁄2 in this class rate for each piece of mail, there might not be that much protest. They think they are having to pay out of their pockets to have this mail carried.

Mr. DOHERTY. There is a very nasty image painted of third-class mail and it is unfortunate that the public does not fully understand. Senator YARBOROUGH. Is it correct that a piece of mail often does not show on the face of it how much postage is paid

Mr. DOHERTY. I think that is so in the case of all third-class mail. Senator YARBOROUGH. That is my impression.

Mr. DOHERTY. That is in mailings except those where stamps are used. Then, of course, you know what the stamp value of it is.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Oh, yes. If third-class mail did show on each piece what was paid-I do not mean to put a stamp on it but by the meter or on the printing on there there might be a different attitude by the public who receive it. They think they are paying out of their pockets to have it sent to them and they did not solicit it. It causes a great deal of misunderstanding.

Mr. DOHERTY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doherty, we certainly thank you for coming here and giving us information on these important matters. If there is anything else that comes up, I hope you will be ready to come back and answer further questions. But I want to tell you that you have presented a magnificent statement here this morning.

Mr. DOHERTY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will make ourselves available. Whenever you need our services as will be right here to assist in every way possible.

(Subsequently the following communication was received. It was ordered printed in the hearing record.)

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LETTER CARRIERS,
Washington, D.C., February 15, 1962.

Hon. OLIN D. JOHNSTON,

Senate Post Office and Civil Service Committee,
Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: In answer to the question raised during the colloquy after my testimony this morning, I would like to inform you that our estimate of the total cost of H.R. 9531, if it is enacted into law, would be $713,815,767.

I would also like to have included in the record the accompanying figures on Federal salaries as of June 30, 1961, from the Civil Service Commission survey, as they were reprinted in the Washington Post on February 13, 1962. With many thanks, I remain

Yours cordially,

W. C. DOHERTY, President.

Federal salaries as of June 30, 1961, Civil Service Commission survey

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will continue the hearings on Tuesday, February 20, at 10:30. Of course some of the committee members have committee meetings on Monday, and some of them could not meet tomorrow, so that makes February 20 the earliest we could schedule the next hearing. I will have the staff contact witnesses who desire to be heard next Tuesday, so that they can be present and be heard at that time.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., Thursday, February 15, 1962, the committee was recessed, to be reconvened at 10:30 a.m. of the following Tuesday, February 20, 1962.)

REFORM IN STATUTORY PAY PROVISIONS

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE,

Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:30 a.m., in room 6202, New Senate Office Building, Hon. Olin D. Johnston (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Johnston, Yarborough, Randolph, and Fong. Also present: William P. Gulledge, staff director and counsel; J. Don Kerlin, assistant staff director; and Frank A. Paschal, minority clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Before starting today's hearing, I have two announcements to make. The first relates to the hearing and the second has to do with the schedule for consideration of adjustments in postal rates.

PAY

It is my hope that the hearings on pay can be concluded with two more meetings. The next session will again be devoted to hearing representatives of employee groups and any individual employees who might wish to testify. The second and concluding session will be for the purpose of giving the administration an opportunity to explain fully its pay reform proposal, which by the way is being submitted to Congress today. The message is coming up at noon and the specific pay schedules will be sent up during the afternoon.

The final day of hearings for other than representatives of the administration will be Friday, March 2, 1962 at the usual hour of 10:30 in the morning.

The

The administration will be heard on a date to be announced. record will then be held open for 5 days to permit the insertion of statements and supplemental data.

RATES

The committee will begin consideration of H.R. 7927, the House passed postal rate bill and related proposals on Tuesday, February 27, as announced tentatively several days ago. On that day, the committee will meet in executive session to review a vast amount of data pertaining to the subject and plan how best to proceed in order to resolve equitably and expeditiously the many complex issues involved.

The public hearings will start March 6, 1962, at 10:30 in this room. The Postmaster General will be heard first after which other interested parties will be heard just as rapidly as time will permit.

87

I just wanted to make this clear about what our procedure will be in the future.

I call to the witness stand Mr. James A. Campbell, president of the American Federation of Government Employees.

STATEMENT OF JAMES A. CAMPBELL, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES; ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN A. McCART, LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR, AND DR. W. J. VOSS, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH

Mr. CAMPBELL. Good morning. Mr. Chairman, I am accompanied this morning by Mr. John A. McCart, legislative director of the American Federation of Government Employees, and Dr. W. J. Voss, the director of research to our federation.

I would like to make this explanation, Senator, in regard to my testimony. I learned just a few minutes ago that the administration proposal provides for a 3-percent increase for the employees in the first two or three grades spread over a period of 3 years. I had an opportunity some time ago to see a draft of the administration proposal which at that time did not contain any provision for an increase for the employees in the first three grades. My testimony will be modified to the extent that instead of saying that the administration proposal, and I am assuming that my information is correct because the report is not out yet, provides nothing in these first three grades, apparently the proposal provides for 3-percent spread over 3 years. The CHAIRMAN. Have you any data available for the committee in regard to what the turnover happens to be in the first three grades? Mr. CAMPBELL. We do not have it here, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. If you do not have it, I would like for you to prepare that for the committee and ask others to do that also. I think it will throw some light on what it is costing the Governmenteven in the lower grades. The turnover is great I believe in those first three grades.

Mr. CAMPBELL. I have a prepared statement, Mr. Chairman. I request that it be placed in the record and I will be allowed to comment on the statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed as you see fit.

Mr. CAMPBELL. As president of the American Federation of Government Employees, it is a source of great satisfaction to be afforded the opportunity to appear before this committee today in behalf of those employees who are compensated according to the provisions of the Classification Act.

Our actual membership in January 1962 was 89,688. This membership is made up of employees in the Federal departments and independent agencies in the continental United States as well as in the Panama Canal Zone, Alaska, Hawaii, and Okinawa.

Before proceeding to a statement of what we consider to be the underlying principles involved in the current pay situation and to an analysis of the need for a classified salary increase, I believe it is incumbent upor me to express our deep appreciation for the interest the chairman and the members of this committee have repeatedly demonstrated in this serious and recurring problem of raising the salaries of classified employees.