Mr. DAVIS. You may proceed as you see fit.

Mr. WEBB. I have with me Mr. Albert F. Siepert, Director of Administration for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration; Mr. Robert J. Lacklen, who is the Director of Personnel of the Administration; and Mr. Howard N. Braithwaite, who is a specialist in this area.

Mr. JOHANSEN. We appreciate your courtesy in having the Director of Personnel here

Mr. WEBB. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chairman, I think this committee remembers from my appearance here last year that we have a very real problem in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in expanding the activities of the Nation in the areas of aeronautical research, space research, and operations in space. I think it fair to say that internationally the Russians did develop a very large booster for military purposes. They have used it effectively for spectacular events that have created the image of a nation very advanced in science and technology. They have used this image advantageously in such places as Berlin. We have had to respond with quite substantial increases in our military forces and otherwise, to protect the essential security and interest of this Nation.

With all of this in mind, it was decided when the Congress passed the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Act after the first sputnik had flown, that we would have a vigorous program which would move forward, A long-range plan was prepared. The program has been doubled, approximately, each year of the previous administration. It is doubling to this point. It will level out next year and not double again.

But we require good people in a program which is expanding at this rapid rate, and on which depends so much the advances in technology essential to our military development, and our ability to use these new areas of science and technology for specific benefits, such as communications satellites. Congress is considering plans to form a corporation to utilize the communications resource. Another example is the meteorological satellite system about which I expect the Department of Commerce officials have testified. If they did not, I think I should say to the committee we have moved on here toward the beginning of an operational worldwide weather satellite system based on an advanced family of satellites, with the Weather Bureau as the operator of this system. We do the research. We continue the application of what we learn in all of our space work to this kind of operational problem.

In this program we work in very close conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission in the development of atomic power for use in space, for nuclear rockets to give us almost a doubling of specific impulse when this rocket becomes available. We work closely with the Department of Defense in doing the research that underpins their aeronautical and space programs.

We have the responsibility in the Nation for manned space flight and for learning to join-in flight-large spacecraft with men in them, so as to be able to build spacecraft in orbit and thereby do work in space which would otherwise require a much longer period of time if we had to build the giant rockets required to do it otherwise.

All of this requires a very large number of very able people, but even so, some 90 to 92 cents out of every dollar appropriated to this agency is spent under contract with nongovernmental institutions. So, in a sense, we are an agency to do research to design the kind of equipment and procedures needed to operate, to manage contracts through which we use private industry to do most of the work, to evaluate the progress under these programs, and then to apply this knowledge for specific purposes, such as the meteorological satellite and the scientific satellite.

One last point, Mr. Chairman.

This program breaks down into four major parts.

The first is that of space science, in which we are using sounding rockets, scientific satellites, and deep space probes to unlock the secrets of nature. We now can use the rocket to fly instruments out beyond the earth's atmosphere and are no longer dependent on many observations made with imperfect instruments like telescopes and others that have to get their information through the obscuring veil of the earth's atmosphere.

Second, we are very active in the manned space flight field where, as I mentioned, we have the major responsibility.

We have a family of vehicles in each of these areas. For example, in the space science experiments we have moved from the one or two experiments, using especially adapted rockets, to where we have in the scientific satellite field an orbiting solar observatory. The first one is in orbit. We will be using this same satellite over the period of 11 years of the solar cycle to understand the earth-sun relationships, the energy transfer characteristics, the effect on our weather, and so forth.

In the manned space flight program, we have a family of vehicles which started with the Mercury that Colonel Glenn flew in, and are moving on to a 1-day mission with the Mercury, to a 1-week mission with the Gemini, on to a 1- to 2-month mission with the Apollo.

Again in the area of applications, we are developing families of vehicles, both in the communications satellite field and the meteorological field, and in other specific applications that are useful to the country. The fourth field is that of advanced research and technology development. As you know, Mr. Chairman, beginning in World War I, when we found we did not have airplanes which could fly and fight and do our work, we established the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics to do the basic aeronautical work for commercial and for military purposes in the development of large facilities like wind tunnels and other such large research tools. We continue to do this work. This is a basic part of this agency, which absorbed the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. Major new areas of advanced research include the most efficient use of energy in rocket engines, the most advanced work with materials, metals, fabrics, lubricants, and fuels, where we are working with fuel-like liquid hydrogen at 420° F. which has to be stored, pumped, and heated up to 3,500 through a nuclear reactor. The requirements for new and advanced materials are very great.

It is our responsibility to do some of the research work in our laboratories, but mostly to contract with industry and universities to carry on this work. We have to determine the need, determine how

best to meet the need, and select the people. Wherever possible we do this through competitive proposals.

Lastly, looking forward to the kind of research tools and organizations that will keep this Nation at the forefront in aeronautics and space, we have to move forward to create the tools which will be necessary over the next 5 to 10 years. Just as the full-scale wind tunnel made every airplane that flew in World War II go 15 to 20 miles an hour faster and made every submarine a more effective instrument because we put it in a full-scale wind tunnel and cleaned up the design, we have the responsibility for looking ahead and of having the kind of people who can anticipate, and use foresight in the needs of the Nation in these advanced fields.

I think this roughly spells out our requirement for personnel. We have, I think, a larger proportion than most agencies of scientific, technical, and professional personnel.

We regard this bill as very important. We regard the comparability feature with industry as very important. We feel when we are spending only 8 to 10 cents out of every dollar on our personnel and other operating costs, and yet must have an organization that can effectively spend the other 90 to 92 cents-that we must have the best people to do this kind of work. The programs involve very large expenditures, and the effectiveness of the management, the decisions as to what technology to use, whether actually to move on from conventional fuels to exotic fuels like liquid hydrogen, are very important. decisions. They involve large expenditures. Brainpower is the essential ingredient for success of the Nation, and I hope very much this committee will favorably report this bill.

Mr. DAVIS. I believe I understood you to say that 90 to 92 percent of the funds appropriated to your agency are used in paying for contracting out work and services.

Mr. WEBB. To nongovernmental institutions, mostly to industries, some of it to universities, some to nonprofit organizations-mostly to industry.

Mr. DAVIS. And the other 8 percent covers the expenses of the employees and the administrative costs of operating the agency.

Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir. The largest amount of it, Mr. Chairman, goes to house the laboratories and the people who know how to operate the very advanced tools of research in these laboratories, so that we know what is good technology and what is not, and in judging the proposals of contractors and guiding them toward the solution of the problems we both have to solve, we have the kind of knowledge and skill that will get the job done.

I may point out, sir, in connection with such problems as the curing of the Electra problem, we are very active in this kind of close relationship with industry whenever a problem in aeronautics arises. We are very active right now on the 707 problem which was caused by the crash up at Idlewild. This requires exceptionally able people. Mr. DAVIS. Did you have any personnel in your department who participated in solving the problems and difficulties with the Electra plane?

Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir; we did. We did a good deal of the basic research which resulted in the design of this and other advanced planes, in the propulsion equipment which resulted in the jet prop type of