Mr. MERRITT. I have no questions. The CHAIRMAN, Mr. Elston? Mr. ELSTON. Mr. Goldie, has there been any agitation on the part of the foremen to form a union? Mr. GOLDIE. There has; yes. Mr. ELSTON. In your plant? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes. Mr. ELSTON. Do you know whether that situation prevails generally in your area? Mr. GOLDIE. Well, I do not know from personal knowledge, but it has been stated by the Foremen's Association of America that they have organizations in 10 or 12 plants in Detroit. Mr. ELSTON. You have not had any wage differences with them, have you? Mr. GOLDIE. No, sir. We have been asked to consent to an election in our plant, but we refused, as we did not believe it was an appropriate bargaining unit. Mr. ELSION. What happened when you refused? Mr. GOLDIE. The matter, I believe, has been referred to the War Labor Board. Mr. ELSTON. And is pending there now? Mr. GOLDIE. And, I believe, is pending now. Mr. ELSTON. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. At this point I desire to read into the record a blank form of notice which I received from my district this morning, signed by E. L. Baker and William Thomas, organizing committee. It is headed, with large black type, "Notice," and it reads as follows: Under a recent ruling of the Wagner Labor Relations Board employees heretofore exempted from membership in the United Mine Workers of America, by the Southern Wage Agreement, and in accordance with the International Constitution of the United Mine Workers of America, amended at its last International Convention in Cincinnati, Ohio, October 1942, all employees in and around the coal mines, coal washers, company stores, offices, recreation buildings, hotels, hospitals, etc., are eligible for membership in the United Mine Workers of America. Therefore, You are invited to attend a meeting to be held in (blank), Ky., on March (blank), 1943, at (blank) M. All mine foremen, assistant foremen and foremen of all classes, dirt inspectors, company weighbosses, dispatchers, mine clerks, timber workers, scrip writers, store clerks, recreation employees, hospital attendants, doctors, janitors, hotel employees, pay roll clerks, shipping clerks, warehouse employees, filling station attendants, and secretaries to all mine officials, and all other employees heretofore exempted from the union. The United Mine Workers of America are prepared to protect you under the Wagner Act and can secure many benefits for you which you do not now enjoy-job security, etc. For any further information contact the local union officers at your mine or the Pikesville office of United Mine Workers. E. L. BAKER, I know both those gentlemen; they are field representatives in my district. Mr. Sparkman? Mr. SPARKMAN. I have no questions. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harness? Mr. DURHAM. How many people do you employ, Mr. Goldie? Mr. GOLDIE. We employ approximately 6,500 in the Detroit branch. Mr. DURHAM. How many people would be affected as foremen under this organizing set-up? Mr. GOLDIE. I would say about 350. Mr. DURHAM. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Fenton? Mr. FENTON. No questions. Mr. PHILBIN. I have no questions. Mr. JOHNSON. I want to ask you one or two questions, Mr. Goldie. Would not an amendment to the Wagner Act, redefining the word "employee," cure this situation? Mr. GOLDIE. If you ask my personal opinion, I think it would; but what type of legislation should be adopted to clarify this situation, I do not think I am qualified to state. Mr. JOHNSON. One of the witnesses here explained that the decision, which was a 2-to-1 decision, turned on what the present statute meant by the word "employee"-that is, by the definition given-and it was felt that under the definition of the act they had to render this decision. So, if you change the word "employee" to exclude people who are the arm of management, that would then cure your situation; would it not? Mr. GOLDIE. I believe it would. Mr. JOHNSON. I want to ask you a few other questions, anticipating that we might have somebody present the other side for us. In the railroad business, I understand that the foreman on a train is the conductor; is that a fact? Mr. GOLDIE. He is head of the unit. Mr. JOHNSON. He is the one who takes and transmits orders to the members of the crew? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes. Mr. JOHNSON. In that way he is foreman of that group; to that extent he is the arm of management? He represents management, because he controls the operations and the work of those who are under him; is not that true? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. Mr. JOHNSON. If you know and can tell us, how does that differ from your situation? Mr. GOLDIE. It differs in this respect-and I am speaking somewhat from personal experience, because I spent 41⁄2 years on a locomotive— that there are no grievances handled on a train on the road. The orders come from the dispatcher. The conductor gets orders and transmits a copy to the engineer. Their orders and rules are very clearly laid down as to the operation of the train. No grievances come up on the road, no insubordination would be tolerated on the road; any grievances to be handled are handled at the end of the run by the grievance committee of the brotherhood, or they were when I was a brotherhood man. Mr. JOHNSON. In a way, that conductor, if anything arises during the course of the trip, is the boss, is he not, and to that extent he represents the employer? Mr. GOLDIE. He is the boss within a very definite set of rules. He could not ask anyone to violate the rules under which each man has to take an examination on the railroad. Mr. JOHNSON. But suppose a controversy arises on the trip. His word is the final say; is it not? Mr. GOLDIE. No, sir. For instance, if they got into a sidetrack or came to a siding, and the engineer thought they did not have time to make the next siding before the train that was coming, but the conductor thought they had, each one of them is independent, and the engineer can refuse to go on, and the conductor could not do anything about it. Mr. JOHNSON. In other words, you think that his functions are much more limited than the functions of foremen in a plant like yours? Mr. GOLDIE. Very much more so. Mr. JOHNSON. In a plant as large as yours, do you have your foremen classified in wage groups? Mr. GOLDIE. They are classified, but not entirely in wage groups. In some cases the assistant foreman of a department might have only a very few men under him; in other departments he may have quite a number. The classifications are on the basis of the skill required and the number of men supervised. Mr. JOHNSON. How many foremen do you have in your plant? Mr. GOLDIE. Approximately 350. Mr. JOHNSON. How many different wage brackets are there? Mr. GOLDIE. There are, I would say, about four. Mr. JOHNSON. So, that means that a good many of the foremen get the same pay? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. Mr. JOHNSON. Do you bargain with each one of them individually, or do you bargain with the group when you fix the wage scale? Mr. GOLDIE. Individually. Mr. JOHNSON. You might raise Jones and not raise Smith? Mr. GOLDIE. That is true. We try to keep that pretty closely in line with the qualifications for their jobs. Mr. JOHNSON. You try to harmonize experience and salary so that comparable men get a comparable scale? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. Mr. JOHNSON. Is it really a bargaining agreement with each man, or is it a sort of set of rules, whereby if a man has certain experience and does certain things he gets sent up? Mr. GOLDIE. It is more or less a bargaining agreement with each man, but the recommendations of his superiors as to his ability and the record of the operation of his department are taken into consideration in establishing his rate. Mr. JOHNSON. Of course, lately, or in the last few years, the scale has gone up, has it not? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes. Mr. JOHNSON. In that situation did you handle them in groups or handle them individually? Mr. GOLDIE. We generally handle them individually, but we periodically go over the whole force to do a lot of, as we say, equalizing of rates throughout all the supervisory force. Mr. JOHNSON. When a man sits down to bargain with whoever is your representative, or with yourself, do you really sit down and bargain-he wants so much, and you want to give him this, and that goes on or do you say, "For the work you are doing, you are entitled to $250 a month"? Mr. GOLDIE. Most of those changes in the rates come voluntarily through the management. The man is notified that his work has been good, that he is entitled to more money, and he is given more money. Mr. JOHNSON. That is all. Mr. HARNESS. Speaking of the railway employees, they do not operate under the Wagner Act, do they? Mr. GOLDIE. I cannot tell you that. Mr. HARNESS. They have their own act, the Railway Labor Act? Mr. GOLDIE. I believe they have; yes. Mr. HARNESS. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Stewart? Mr. STEWART. Do you notice any "slowdownness" in the increase of the hours from 40 to 48 a week? Mr. GOLDIE. I have not noticed any, because we have been operating most of our departments for 48 hours, or a large percentage of them, for the last two years and a half. Mr. STEWART. So, there has been no increase in slowdownness in production in your operations? Mr. GOLDIE. No, sir. I may say that our operations are practically all on the incentive system. The CHAIRMAN. I did not hear that. Mr. GOLDIE. I say, practically all of our operations are on the incentive system. Mr. STEWART. Do you pick out as foreman the men who present the best picture-the men who do the best job and who show the greatest ability and capacity to develop it? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes. Mr. STEWART. You do not draw your line of differentiation on the question whether a man came out of the union or was nonunion? Mr. GOLDIE. Not at all. Mr. STEWART. You just go back to the old American system of picking a good employee? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes, sir. Mr. STEWART. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Goldie. STATEMENT OF C. C. CARLTON, VICE PRESIDENT, MOTOR WHEEL CORPORATION, LANSING, MICH. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Carlton, please state your full name, your business connection, and tell us what you think about the legislation this committee has pending and is considering. Mr. CARLTON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, my name is C. C. Carlton. I am vice president of the Motor Wheel Corporation, at Lansing, Mich. I wish to testify particularly relative to section 4 of this proposed bill, and I am testifying as president of the Automotive Manufacturers Association. I would like to submit a list of S. J. Blum, vice president, Arvey Corporation, Detroit, Mich. the people represented by Mr. Goldie, who has just preceded me, and by myself, authorizing us to speak for their particular cause. The CHAIRMAN. You may do that. (The list referred to was filed with the committee.) Authorization received from C. T. Fezzy, vice president, Ackerman-Blaesser-Fezzy, Inc., Detroit, Mich... E. Graper, president, Acklin Stamping Co., Toledo, Ohio__ R. G. Gracey, general manager, Acme-Lees Division of the Serrick Edmund Nolan, president, Advance Stamping Co., Detroit, Mich____ Charles H. Ainsworth, president, Ainsworth Manufacturing Corpora- W. S. Saunders, president, American Forging & Socket Co., Pontiac, W. B. Gemmill, treasurer, American Stamping Co., Cleveland, Ohio-- R. G. Rule, president-treasurer, the A. P. Parts Corporation, Toledo, Automotive Plants 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 F. P. Zimmerli, Barnes-Gibson-Raymond Division, Associated Spring W. A. Rose, president and general manager, the Bassick Co., Bridge- R. L. Morrison, vice president and general manager, Bendix-Westinghouse Automotive Air Brake Co., Elyria, Ohio___. G. R. Wilber, president, Blood Bros. Machine, Allegan. Mich.. P. A. Markey, president, Bohn Aluminum & Brass Corporation, Detroit, Mich__ George W. Borg Corporation, Chicago, Ill. 1 H. O. Johnson, vice president, Bound Brook Oil-less Bearing Co., 1 W. D. Robinson, vice president, Briggs Manufacturing Co., De- E. A. Clark, vice president, Budd Wheel Co., Detroit, Mich. A. S. Bonner, president, Clark Equipment Co., Buchanan, Mich_. Leo Mayer, president, Cole-Hersee Co., South Boston, Mass__ L. M. Crosby, general manager, Dail Steel Products Co., Lansing, 1 W. N. Davis, president, Davis Stamping Co., Detroit, Mich_ George Walther, president and general manager, Dayton Steel Foundry 1 Defiance Manufacturing Co., Defiance, Ohio__. 1 H. A. Lightner, president, DeLuxe Products Corporation, La Port, Ind_ 1 |