Mr. ELSTON. I want to say that I thoroughly agree with you that nobody should have a deferred status if he is not willing to do a full day's work, but I do not believe this section will accomplish that. My complaint about the section was that it applies only to the officers of the labor union, because they are the ones who do the prescribing. Mr. RANDALL. I think you will find the word "group" in there, sir. I thought of that in connection with the war shipping program. Mr. ELSTON. Perhaps it does later on, but in the various subsections that are listed under section 3 it applies only to those who do the prescribing. It would not reach down to the man who fails to do a full day's work. Mr. RANDALL. I am afraid I am not very helpful on the phraseology of the bill. Mr. ELSTON. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. On behalf of the committee, I should like to let them have an opportunity to question you further; however, since we have only a short time remaining, I can only say that we have been delighted to hear your answers. Mr. SHORT. I should like to ask the gentleman if he is for the bill. Mr. RANDALL. I am for the bill definitely and strictly across the board, as the saying is. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Randall. The CHAIRMAN. The last witness we shall hear today is Mr. Edward E. Butler, vice president of the Vinco Corporation, of Detroit. STATEMENT OF EDWARD E. BUTLER, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, VINCO CORPORATION, DETROIT, MICH. The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Butler. Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: My name is Edward E. Butler. I am the executive vice president of Vinco Corporation of Detroit, Mich., manufacturers of gages, precision instruments, and machine tools. At the request of the Automotive Tool and Die Manufacturers Association, of which I am a director and my company is a member, I have asked to appear before your committee and express our Association's approval of House Resolution 2239, introduced by Mr. Smith of Virginia, particularly with regard to that portion of the bill denying executive, administrative, professional, and supervisory employees the right to unionize. The members of our association employ approximately 15,000 tool and die makers, unquestionably the largest concentration of the highest type of skilled labor in the country. Our association, numbering over 200 members, is currently producing various products extremely vital to our country's war effort at the rate of approximately $200,000,000 per year. We were extremely happy to learn that this bill was referred to your Committee on Military Affairs because we know of nothing more important to the military affairs of this Nation than the immediate necessity to stop the trend toward the formation of foremen unions. I say that without equivocation whatsoever. The vast majority of the industrial enterprises of this country are currently engaged in producing materials necessary to the effective prosecution of the war. I say further, and again without equivocation, that the widespread formation of foreman unions will hamper immediately and seriously the magnificent effort private industry is now making and will eventually lead to the type of complete industrial confusion and chaos that contributed so heavily to the downfall of once free France. We, all of us, have many times heard and read remarks from high spokesmen of the administration and from the heads of many war agencies referring to the Nation's industrial workers as soldiers of production, and truly they are. Foremen are an extremely important part of this vast industrial army and might well be likened to the noncommissioned officers in the field. Picture, if you can, the confusion of an army in the field if the noncommissioned officers were forced to listen to the commands of the men in the ranks as well as those of their superior officers. Very few battles would be won in circumstances of that nature, and I can assure you very few production battles are going to be won if foremen and other supervisory personnel are allowed to unionize, because in so doing they would be required to obey the commands of their union as well as the commands of management. If all that I have said is true, and believe me it is, this bill should receive the same serious consideration you would give to the size of our Army, the number of planes, tanks, guns, and ships we should have. The passage of this bill will help to insure the continued steady flow of the sorely needed weapons of war to our armed forces. The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, sir. Mr. DURHAM. Are any of your men being drafted, or have they all received occupational deferment? Mr. BUTLER. As to those who are naturally within the military age, heretofore or up to this point we have had very little difficulty in getting deferments because of the nature of our work and the extreme shortage of the type of skill that we require. Mr. SHORT. What is the average age of your employees? Mr. BUTLER. The average age of our employees is approximately 34. Mr. HARNESS. Do you have any replacement program to replace some of those essential employees who are of draft age? Mr. BUTLER. We have constantly in operation a school, or two classes rather, in which there are at all times more employees being trained than we employed in our entire operation in the whole year of 1939. Mr. HARNESS. Are those who are being trained, women, or men beyond the draft age? Mr. BUTLER. Speaking for my own company, we are confining applicants to the class of people who we feel will be exempt from military service. Mr. HARNESS. Either because of physical disability or Mr. BUTLER. Physical disability or domestic status. Mr. ELSTON. What percentage of your employees falls within the supervisory or foremen class? Mr. BUTLER. Approximately 6 percent. Mr. MARTIN. From your statement, you are taking and training as foremen men who you think will be deferred on other grounds, so that if these other people are taken, you will not lose any appreciable part? Mr. BUTLER. I did not follow that. I did not hear the last part of your question. Mr. MARTIN. You stated that your men in training as foremen were taken largely from the group that would probably have deferment on other grounds? Mr. BUTLER. No; you misunderstood me, Congressman. We are training that many people for the actual machine shops. The training of foremen is actually conducted within our plant, and the material has been with us for some time. The men are gradually elevated to foremanship. We are not training any new people from the streets, so to speak, for foremen's jobs; it is an impossibility. Mr. SHORT. What percentage of your employees are women? Mr. BUTLER. Approximately 10 percent at the present time; it is increasing monthly. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Butler. The committee will go into executive session for about 5 minutes. (The committee then held an executive session. An adjournment was then taken until Wednesday, March 31, 1943, at 10 o'clock a. m.) FULL UTILIZATION OF MANPOWER WEDNESDAY, MARCH 31, 1943 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D. C. The committee met at 10: 15 a. m., pursuant to adjournment, Hon. Andrew J. May, chairman presiding. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will please be in order. Will Mr. R. J. Goldie come forward, please? STATEMENT OF R. J. GOLDIE, VICE PRESIDENT, TIMKEN-DETROIT AXLE CO., DETROIT, MICH. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Goldie, please state your full name, place of residence, and whom you represent, and then tell us about your interest in this legislation and what your views are. Mr. GOLDIE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am R. J. Goldie, vice president of the Timken-Detroit Axle Co. My home is at 201 East Kirby Street, Detroit. I am appearing at the request of members of the A. P. E. M.-the Automotive Parts Equipment Manufacturers— together with Mr. Carlton. I shall be very brief, for I have to get away in order to catch a plane. I heard most of the testimony yesterday, but there are one or two things that I think have not been touched on, on which I would like to express my views. There seems to be some question about the evolution of a foreman. In most plants I think it comes from a man's being picked out first as a set-up man or a job-setter who has more than usual ability. His first step up to such a job is as assistant foreman. He assumes a certain amount of supervisory responsibility, and as he is able to absorb that and carry out the policies of the management, he is generally stepped along until he becomes a foreman, and eventually a general foreman; and then, of course, the sky is the limit, and as far as he goes depends upon his ability. In most of the contracts with the unions there is a procedure for handling the grievances of the workers. That procedure in most cases has been to make complaint to the assistant foreman through the steward of the department, and as many of those complaints as possible that can be adjusted, without going any further to a written. grievance and carried up to the board-the industrial relations board— are handled in that way. A great many of the complaints are generally eliminated right at that point. It takes a load off the grievance committee chat handles most of those grievances and helps to expedite the work. If this foremen's union were to be put into opera 86329-4? tion, it would be quite natural that you could not allow foremen to handle these grievances, because they could very well nullify the agreement you have with the workers' union, since any settlement that they made might be or might not be in line with the intent and purpose of the agreement. That would mean, therefore, if it went into effect, that a new stratum of men would have to be put in above the foreman, for the purpose of handling those grievances, which would, of course, complicate the method of handling them and cut down the time, take up valuable time, and waste manpower, in my judgment. On top of that, nearly every contract that is now in existence, that I have had any knowledge of, sets up its grievance procedure and has to follow in just that fashion: first, by coming in as a complaint and being handled by the assistant foreman or the foreman; and if it is there handled and never goes any further, it never becomes a written grievance. If this foremen's organization goes into effect, and you cannot very well allow foremen to handle grievances in conjunction with the workmen at the expense of the management, then nearly all of our contracts with our unions will have to be altered by some means or other, because the procedure is set up in all those contracts, and that alteration would have to be made, because you could not go along with the present method of contracting. We have always considered the foreman as a part of management, and all the labor laws under which we are now operating seem to have been set up on the basis of labor and management. If the foreman is not labor and is not management, then a third party is introduced to bargain with labor at the expense of management, without management having anything to say about it. The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt you for a question? Mr. GOLDIE. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. The principle of collective bargining contemplates the making of a bargain? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. How would you have collective bargaining if there were not two parties to discuss the problem and agree upon it? For instance, management on the one side and workers on the other? Mr. GOLDIE. I do not know. That is the thing I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Is not that the situation that is presented in the industry of the country generally at this time? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. To what extent has that proposition been brought up throughout the country in industry, so far as you know? Mr. GOLDIE. Well, it has become pretty nearly universal throughout the automotive industry, to my knowledge. The CHAIRMAN. Do all of the motor companies, so far as you know, have contracts for production of war materials? Mr. GOLDIE. Yes; I believe almost universally. The CHAIRMAN. You have dealings with all of them through your organization from time to time? Mr. GOLDIE. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. You may go ahead. Mr. GOLDIE. I have finished my statement, Mr. Chairman. |