contracts on new work they had replaced them and they had a complete new organization all built and that is about the time I came into the employ of the Hudson Motor Car Co.

Well, in building up this organization a man would come for a position and they would make him an offer, and it was always low enough. Well, he would not take it and then they would raise the ante a little. And still he could not see it because he would rather work on a machine some place and he could make more money and they would come on up. They hired two new foremen in the same division that I am in last week and they are starting on a new job. It has not even been tooled yet and there is no production on it. They are giving those men $375 a month salary. The highest paid. to foremen in that department and some of those men have been there for 18 years, is $350 a month. They had to pay these two men $375 to get them. We were in need of foremen on the 11 to 7 shift. There sometime ago there was a job setter who was in a dry-cleaning plant for 18 years. He came in the shop and he was a man who was quick to learn. And we needed a foreman in the 11 to 7 shift at night and I asked this man, I said, "Fred, I would like to have you take this shift of 11 to 7." He said, "How much can you get for me?" I said, "I do not know. I will talk to the superintendent."

I asked the superintendent. He said how much do you think the man would have to have to get him to take the job? "Well," I said, "I do not know. Right now he is averaging about $119 a week. He said, "Well, the most we can give him is $350 a month.'

I went back and asked the man and he said, "Well, Bill, I would like to be a foreman and all that, but I cannot afford to pay a hundred dollars a month for the honor."

We are not getting the best men today for foremen in the factories on account of the fact that the man knows that the very minute he steps out from under the protective wing of organized labor that he is out on his own and he is out in the cold. I have had one raise since I have been with the company. I do not kick about my wages. I do kick about the fact that on Sunday when I go in to work the company insults me by giving me 75 cents to buy my dinner. The CHAIRMAN. They give you what?

Mr. SANDERS. They give me 75 cents to buy my dinner. They give my job setter if he works 10 hours, which I have to work, they give him $27. My men's wages run from $1.02 per hour to $1.35 per hour. Before we had the association we did not receive any overtime whatever. Beginning the 1st of March the company put out a letter, in 1940 there was a general cut in all salaried help of 10 percent. This cut was in effect 6 months and we were given 10 percent of our then salary. However, this did not give us our original salary back.

Before I read this, I want to read the letter restoring what they called, restoring our overtime, and it is based on a 51-hour week. In other words, we have to work 51 hours a week before the company recognizes that we have worked any overtime. They told us that our solaries were all based on 48 hours a week. This letter restoring this overtime reads as follows:

Arrangements have been completed with the Treasury Department whereby we have obtained from the Salary Stabilization Unit an authorization permitting compensation for work performed in excess of our standard workweek by assistant foreman, foreman, general foreman, assistant superintendents, and superintendents, in the manufacturing departments, who receive less than $650 per month.

Extra compensation for overtime plus base salary will be paid as outlined below to an aggregate of not more than $650 per month, irrespective of base salary.

Such additional time is to be approved by the superintendent or his assistant. The standard workweek is established as 48 hours and additional compensation will be paid pro rata up to a total of 60 hours, for any 1 week, not including Sundays, as provided in the following paragraph:

"Employees remunerated for their work by the salary compensation method recognize the obligation of occasional casual overtime in connection with their responsibility. Because of this established precedent, this arrangement disallows any overtime payment except in excess of 51 hours. However, when approved overtime has accrued in excess of 51 hours, it will be paid for from the base of 48 hours."

Under this ruling by the Salary Stabilization Unit, all departments of the Manufacturing Division are included.

For the time being, this extra compensation will be computed on the hours reported to the salary-pay-roll office on the weekly time report (Form No. 10402). For this reason these reports should be personally approved by the superintendent or his assistant.

This plan is effective March 1, 1943.

We will discontinue supper-money payments to those employees who are affected by this arrangement.

Further negotiations are in progress with the Treasury Department to provide a plan for compensation for Sunday work.

HUDSON MOTOR CAR Co.

Mr. MAY. What is the date of that letter?
Mr. SANDERS. The date of this letter was March 1.
The CHAIRMAN. Of this year?

Mr. SANDERS. Yes; it started March 1. It says "This plan is effective March 1, 1943." And it says: "We will discontinue suppermoney payments to those employees who are affected by this arrangement. Then supper-money was paid to all those employees who did not receive overtime that work until 6 o'clock in the evening during any day. If they work until 6 o'clock on Sunday you get $1.50. The letter also states:

Further negotiations are in progress with the Treasury Department to provide a plan for compensation for Sunday work.

Now, as to the method of hiring and promotion and those things in our company, they are controlled directly by management. What I mean by management is the general factory superintendent and up. The assistant superintendent in our factory does not have the right to hire. We have a time study department that allows me so many man-hours to produce so much work. I must keep my manpower within this unit and get out the work that is laid down by the time study department. Those time studies are taken-they are not brought to the foreman to sign or to approve or to say whether he can produce this work-the time study department states the time and the man-hours necessary to perform a certain amount of work and that is what we have to work on. If I want men, if I am short of men that are necessary to get out the amount of work that is laid down for me to produce I put in a labor requisition. I sign this requisition which is signed by the general foreman and the assistant superintendent and from there it goes to the time study department. They check to see if I am within my man-hours and from there it goes to Mr. Taylor who is the works manager. It must have his approval before the employment department can employ the man to give me to do the work.

If I want to change a man's rate, he comes in at a minimum rate. We have three steps in the classification of workmen. A man is hired in a lower classification. Automatically, at the end of 30 days, he is

given an increase whether he merits it or not. After that to get him one that is up to the supervision of the plant. And if the man does not get it within a reasonable amount of time, if he is turning out the same work, maybe it may not be quite as good, but if he is producing the same number of pieces as the man alongside of him that is getting that amount of pay, the steward will go directly to the superintendent. Lots of times a raise will come through without the foreman knowing anything about it. That is also signed by the general foreman and the superintendent. If you recommend a man for a raise or a change in rate for a salaried employee, that is quite a drawn-out affair. It has got to be taken over several desks for approval. In the first place, your general foreman has to recommend the increase. It goes to the assistant superintendent. He approves or disapproves it. It then goes to the plant superintendent for his approval or disapproval. From there it goes directly to Mr. Taylor's office, who is the work manager, and Mr. Northrup is the last word on all salary increases of pay. He is the vice president in charge of production. That is the procedure that our company works under.

Now, the need of organization for some protection for us, I have seen since the year 1938. It happened to be in one of Mr. Wilson's factories. I worked quite a few years for General Motors. There were 18 foremen laid off in 1 day without being given any reason whatever, and they were replaced with hourly rated men, because it was almost the end of the season, and the salary foremen would draw their salaries through the slack period but replacing them with the hourly rated men, those men only were paid for the actual amount of time that they were in the shop and had the work. In our plant we have so much variation in the salary at the present time it is the largest kick. All the men are not kicking about their salaries. Some of the men are saying, "Fine, I get plenty, but it is not right." I may be working here and may be making $400 a month and the man in the next department to me doing the same type of work may be getting $285 a month. That is one of the biggest troubles we have today in the Hudson Motor Car Co. There is no relation and no basis.

Another thing, if the superintendent wants to let a man who is on a salary go he just calls him in the office and he tells him he is through and he does not have to give a reason. Maybe the man may have been with him for 4 or 5 years and maybe he is a good producer or it may be a personal matter, or it may not. But you have nothing to say. You have no one to go to if he tells you you are through than to find that all you can do is to go out in the world and say, "Well, you still think you are as good a man as you ever were and that you can find a better job", and start out looking for a job. That is one thing which is worrying the foremen today more than anything else. They have no security, none whatever.

The old saying that I have heard all my life of a person being between the devil and the deep blue sea, I guess a man has to be a foreman to really know where that place is. Lots of times organized labor is not too friendly with us because we are hired to do a specific duty. Management hires us men to go in and produce and it our job to get out the production and there are lots of times when we have to do things that maybe the men, the workingmen under us, just do not approve of and they do not like it but nevertheless that is our job. We are hired to carry out orders of the management and when a foreman falls down in carrying out the order of the management

he has fallen down on a specific job that he has been employed to do. One thing that has been brought up in this hearing here is that management is afraid that if the foremen are organized they might lay down on their job. I cannot see that. I do not think that that has ever entered any foreman's mind. The type of men that I have worked with and associated with in the last 10 or 12 years as foremen I have found them to be very conscientious. They know what their job is and they know what they are being paid for. I do not think they would ever lay down on their job just because they had a little protection for themselves. At the present time the contract of the C. I. O. specifically states that they control all hourly rated employees of the Hudson Motor Car Co. regardless of whether they are foremen or workmen. We have a foreman who, as I just mentioned, this one man, is a member of the C. I. O.

Here is a copy of contract for the year 1943. It is a new contract that was just drawn up by the company and the union. And it states here that the union has the bargaining right for all hourly rated employees. Now, it does not classify whether they shall be workingmen, clerks, timekeepers, foremen, or what they are.

The CHAIRMAN. That relates to only those employees who work by the hour or for a specific price, doesn't it?

Mr. SANDERS. By the hour, that is right, yes, sir. And any man working on a salary in our company, he has no right to be a member of the union regardless of what he is doing. If he is a salaried employee he cannot be a member of the C. I. O. under their contract. He may be a foreman and be on an hourly rate and he still could be a member of the union. There are some clauses in this contract here that I would like to read.

Section (n) of paragraph 5 reads as follows:

The fact of having been a foreman or assistant foreman does not establish priority seniority over other employees. Foreman or assistant foremen with no previous production record when demoted will be placed in lowest classification.

In other words, if you are a foreman and the company cuts down on production and does not need so many foremen, you have got to go down to the bottom and if they are laying off men and have no place to place you, you are automatically without a job.

In article 6, section (a), it says:

The right to select, retain, transfer, or discharge employees is exclusively that of the management, providing it is not used for the purpose of discrimination because of membership in the union, and is in accordance with seniority and other provisions herein established.

That is part of the contract.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, do you object to that?

Mr. SANDERS. None whatever.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not object to that?

Mr. SANDERS. No, sir.

Article 6, subsection (h) says:

No foreman or assistant foreman will perform an operation which will deprive an operator of his job. This does not prevent the foreman or assistant foreman from performing the necessary function of instruction. No salaried employee will have priority seniority over hourly rate employees.

Mr. HARNESS. That contemplates, then, that foremen and the salaried workers are a part of management, doesn't it?

Mr. SANDERS. No, I do not think that we can say that a clerk or a stenographer or a foreman is part of management.

Mr. HARNESS. Why would the union have such a provision written. into the contract? They apparently do not want the management

Mr. SANDERS (interposing). Mr. Chairman, these contracts are drawn up after sitting around a table by the union and the company. It is very easily seen why maybe one thing may be in one contract and is not in another contract. In other words, maybe one company may have a different agreement with the union. The union may ask for something and the company may say "All right, I will give you this if you will concede that." It is a matter of negotiation that comes through these contracts. These contracts are drawn up by the company and the union sitting in a union.

Mr. HARNESS. But the union representatives who insisted on the terms of that contract considered the foremen and the supervisory employees as part of the management, didn't they, according to what you read?

Mr. SANDERS. Well, I do not see where they connect that with the management, no, because management in the opinion of both of the men who are actually in the shop doing the work, management is with the general factory superintendent.

Mr. HARNESS. Now, do you agree with this thing that Mr.Wilson said in quoting from one of his contracts, that is Mr. Wilson, of General Motors:

It is fundamental that a man cannot serve two masters. As a practical matter if there were a foremen's union a foreman would be continually faced with the problem of whether a particular decision or action would be serving the objectives of the union or serving the objectives of management. A foreman could not function in such a position and in his allegiance he would either be loyal to the union and be obligated to carry out its dictates or he would remain a part of management and carry out the management's policies. Any attempt on the part of any foreman to ride both horses would add to his own confusion and render him ineffective.

Mr. SANDERS. In answer to that I can say that a foreman in being a member of the foremen's association would not have two horses to ride. We have not anything in our association that is detrimental to management or ownership. And if we do not have an organization and police it ourselves and keep it above reproach, we would never be able to have the good will and support of management and ownership. That is our feeling.

Mr. HARNESS. The provision you read from that contract undoubtedly was insisted upon by the union representatives negotiating with management; wasn't it? Now, if you have in your organization sitting at that table you would sit down and say you do not want that discriminatory provision put in against the foremen?

Mr. SANDERS. I certainly say there should be no discrimination in industry any place regardless of whether it is labor, foremen, or management.

Mr. HARNESS. It appears that is discriminatory against foremen because if you are reduced to the ranks, you lose all seniority rights. Mr. SANDERS. That is one thing that foremen face in all industry when they take a position as a foreman.

Mr. HARNESS. Where would the man, the foreman, sit in a conference anyhow between management and labor in drawing a contract similar to that? Are you going to be with managment about this, or be with the others?