Senator AUSTIN. There is a deficiency there also, is there?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir. The actual cost was greater than the estimated cost.

Senator AUSTIN. What is the next item that has had money expended on it?

General ROBINS. Surry Mountain is the next.

Senator AUSTIN. That is in Ashuelot?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir; on the Ashuelot River in New Hampshire.

Senator AUSTIN. How much has been expended for that?

General ROBINS. $1,645,000.

Senator AUSTIN. That is approximately what was estimated? General ROBINS. Yes, sir. It was built approximately in accordance with the estimate.

Senator AUSTIN. And the estimate was $1,620,000?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir.

Senator AIKEN. Surry Mountain is not in Ashuelot. It is on the upper reaches of the Ashuelot River. It is quite a distance from the town or village of Ashuelot.

General ROBINS. It is near Keene, N. H.

Senator AUSTIN. Is there anything else in that table that has had money expended on it?

General ROBINS. There has been no money expended for construction on any other reservoir project, Senator.

Senator AUSTIN. Is it not true that you have about $50,000,000 unappropriated but authorized money left in this $57,400,000?

General ROBINS. The entire plan estimated to cost $57,000,000 was authorized, but we have not been authorized by Congress to spend that much yet.

Senator AUSTIN. How much do you have left that is authorized but not appropriated?

General ROBINS. I think $26,000,000 authorized and $10,000,000 expended. So we would have $16,000,000 left.

Senator AUSTIN. But this bill relates only to an authorization? General ROBINS. That is all. This bill will add $30,000,000 more to the limit of authorization.

Senator AUSTIN. You have to subtract $30,000,000 in this bill from $57,460,000 to ascertain that you have $27,000,000, approximately, already authorized?

General ROBINS. No, sir. The $57,000,000 figure is not an authorization; it is simply an estimate of cost of those reservoirs. Congress in approving this project did not authorize the expenditure of the $57,000,000. The authorization for expenditures is made in floodcontrol bills as they come along. All that we have been authorized to expend so far is $26,000,000. If this bill passes we will have an additional authorization for expenditure of $30,000,000, making $56,000,000.

Senator AUSTIN. I understand that; but there is nothing in this bill that specifies No. 12 or No. 20 or No. 3, or even the Williamsville Dam, No. 11, is there?

General ROBINS. No, sir.

Senator AUSTIN. Not at all. As a matter of fact, we are left in the dark here as we study this, are we not, with respect to what items

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the money was authorized for in the act of August 18, 1941, which amended the act of June 28, 1938? We are in the dark, are we not?

General ROBINS. No, sir; I don't think you are in the dark. Congress left the selection of projects within the approved list to the Secretary of War and Chief of Engineers.

Senator AUSTIN. You can clear us up about it and tell us what items which are named in that report were covered by those two acts of June 28, 1938, and August 18, 1941, and that will help us to know what items were not covered.

General ROBINS. As far as the reservoirs are concerned, those that have been constructed we have already named, Knightsville, Birch Hill, and Surry Mountain.

Senator AUSTIN. But they aggregate only about $7,000,000.

General ROBINS. Besides the reservoirs, Senator, there are local protection works downstream in Massachusetts, at Holyoke, Springfield, and elsewhere in Connecticut and Massachusetts, and money has been spent on them; but of the reservoirs only those three have been built. In the hearings before the House Committee on Flood Control we testified as to what reservoirs had been built and what our plans were in connection with the additional authorization for expenditure of $30,000,000, what reservoirs we would build if this bill passed; and the Williamsville Reservoir was named as the one of first priority, so far as we see it from an engineering standpoint.

Senator AUSTIN. Is it true that you cannot tell us anything else about the items that are in that report on page 4 which were comprehended and authorized by the acts of June 28, 1938, and August 18, 1941? There was nothing excepting this report to go by; is that right?

General ROBINS. I think that in the hearings before the committees on that bill which was enacted June 28, 1938, we set forth the reservoirs that we would build under that authorization. I think they were the ones we have just talked about, Knightsville, Birch Hill, and Surry Mountain.

Senator AUSTIN. And no others; is that right?

General ROBINS. The hearings probably listed others in the order in which we would build them as far as the money would go.

Senator AUSTIN. You have had authorized $26,000,000. You did not contemplate any such sum of money as that for those three items, of course, because you have said here that the total of your estimates is only $7,000,000.

General ROBINS. No; the way this project is authorized, the Chief of Engineers selects from these reservoirs the ones he wants to build, in the order that he wants to build them; and that is all explained before the committees, as I have said before, when we come up for those authorizations, and also before the appropriation committees. Senator AUSTIN. Can you tell us the items that are named in that report that are already authorized in that $26,000,000?

General ROBINS. $26,000,000 worth of them, whichever ones were selected.

Senator AUSTIN. You have not specified them, have you?

General ROBINS. We specify them as we come to them and go before the Appropriations Committee to get the money. We also explain to the Flood Control Committee of the House and the Commerce Committee of the Senate what our plans are and what we propose to do.

Senator AUSTIN. That makes it clearer to me than it was before. But we are in the dark when we consider a bill like the pending bill with respect to what it is for.

Now I will ask you this: Can you tell us what items in the report or anywhere else are intended to be covered by the $30,000,000 contained in this paragraph on page 5 of the bill, from lines 16 to 24?

General ROBINS. We stated that before the Flood Control Committee of the House. I know that the Williamsville Reservoir was one of them. I don't remember the others, but we can get them out of the record of the hearings.

Senator OVERTON. While they are looking that up may I ask a question to clarify it in my own mind.

The Connecticut River Basin contemplates expenditure, according to estimates made by the Corps of Engineers, of $56,000,000 for reservoirs. Up to the present bill there has been authorized an expenditure of approximately $26,000,000, and this bill carries with it a further authorization of $30,000,000, making a total of $56,000,000. If the $30,000,000 in the present bill is authorized, then there will have been authorized, according to the estimates made by the engineers, a sufficient amount to complete substantially the comprehensive flood-control plan of the Connecticut River Basin. Is that correct? General ROBINS. Yes, sir; based on the pre-war estimates contained in H. Doc. 724.

Senator OVERTON. I assumed from your answers that in the case of ⚫ the Connecticut River Basin you would act as you would in reference to all other comprehensive flood-control plans. After the money has been authorized you determine what project shall be built, and you go before the Appropriations Committee with a break-down and ask for an appropriation to cover the items that have been authorized and for which you are asking an appropriation?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir; that is the exact procedure.

Senator OVERTON. As your work advances you select the projects, all of which have been authorized by the Congress; and in this case, if this bill be passed for which the appropriations have been authorized, you select and come before the Congress through the medium of the Appropriations Committee with a break-down showing just what projects you expect to build with the money that will be actually appropriated?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir. That is exactly what we do. In addition to that, before the Flood Control Committee and the Commerce Committee, when they are considering authorizations as you are today, we state to the committees what our plans are, as far as we know. and which dams are likely to be selected, so that everybody knows as well as we do and as far as we know what we are going to do.

Senator AUSTIN. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the witness two other questions. I will not delay you long.

Senator OVERTON. That is perfectly all right. I just wanted to clear it up in my own mind.

Senator AUSTIN. The effect of what you have said, General, is this, is it not, that it will be left entirely up to the Army engineers, without regard for the wishes of Congress or of the State, as to whether or not Williamsville Dam or any other of these dams should be excluded from authorization. Is not that the effect of it?

.

General ROBINS. No, sir. We have to go to Congress to get the

money.

Senator AUSTIN. No; I am talking about authorizations; I am not talking about appropriations.

General ROBINS. The Congress has already authorized them.
Senator AUSTIN. It has not yet; has it?

General ROBINS. It has authorized the project; yes, sir. It has not authorized the expenditure for the project, the appropriation.

Senator AUSTIN. Is there any place in your conception where the State of Vermont has anything to say about it?

General ROBINS. When this report was submitted, the local people and the States and everybody knew about it and had their say about it.

Senator AUSTIN. Do you think the door is closed on our making an opposition to an authorization based on your report of $6,280,000 to be used on Williamsville Dam? Do you think we are foreclosed?

General ROBINS. No, sir; you are not foreclosed at all.

Senator AUSTIN. That is the business in hand right here at this minute. We are asking this committee not to authorize that. And if nothing is done with respect to this in detail, but it is handled only in blank for $56,000,000, that would be one more door closed on us. 1 General ROBINS. You never have the door closed on you.

Senator AUSTIN. But one more step has been taken toward carrying out that plan.

General ROBINS. I do not know that I exactly understand your question.

Senator AUSTIN. You need not answer it. I will ask you this question, which I think you can answer. Is it not true that this whole amount, this additional $30,000,000, if it were authorized in the language contained in this bill, could be expended on the Williamsville Reservoir, so far as the authorization goes?

General ROBINS. Yes; from a strictly legal standpoint.

Senator AUSTIN. If we pass this bill just as it is written and do not exclude the Williamsville Dam or limit it, every cent of the $30,000,000 will be authorized to spend on that dam; will it not?

General ROBINS. No, sir.

Senator AUSTIN. You do not consider that this is limited in any way by these estimates, do you?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir. We consider ourselves limited to the original estimates as nearly as we can to get the project built. We certainly would not spend three times as much as the estimated cost.

Senator AUSTIN. I brought out in the first instance the fact that you are not limited to the fact that you did exceed those estimates in the few items that you have performed. It is true, is it not, and it has been so testified, that so far as the authorization goes, if it is allowed to go through in the shape that it is, you could spend the whole amount of $30,000,000 on the Williamsville Dam?

General ROBINS. No, sir. We would not feel justified in doing that. Senator AUSTIN. Were you present when Col. George R. Goethals, Chief of the Flood Control Branch, Office of Chief of Engineers, resumed his testimony on H. R. 4485, as printed at page 52 of the hearings from May 13 through June 1 to June 11, 1943? Were you present when he testified?

General ROBINS. I don't remember, sir.

Senator AUSTIN. Have you read what he testified to?
General ROBINS. I do not know.

Senator AUSTIN. Do you recall this-that, representing the office of Chief of Engineers, he testified as follows [reading]:

The additional amount of $30,000,000 proposed in the bill could be applied for completion of all of the Williamsville Reservoir, which is one of the largest expenditures in the list.

Do you recall that?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir; I recall that.

Senator AUSTIN. Do you agree with it or disagree with it?

General ROBINS. You could not spend all of that for the Williamsville Dam without going to Congress and getting an appropriation and explaining to Congress just what you were doing.

Senator AUSTIN. Well, on the authorization you come and ask for $30,000,000 and can apply it as you see fit to any one of those projects, can you not, if you get an appropriation?

General ROBINS. Technically you can, sir; but you cannot go to Congress and defend what you are doing before the Appropriations Committee if it is not in accord with the authorization.

Senator AUSTIN. We are trying to narrow this down, if we can, to a specification that is reliable. I am trying to ascertain if this report can be relied on, wherein there is authorized for the Williamsville Dam $6,297,000.

General ROBINS. That sum was estimated for the low dam for flood control only; the proposition of building a high dam and generating power involves additional cost. That we could not do without going to Congress and getting its approval.

Senator AUSTIN. If you got this authorization through at $30,000,000 you would then be in a position to go to the Appropriations Committee and get an appropriation raised far above that amount so that you could build your high dam; could you not?

General ROBINS. If the committee saw fit to approve such a proposition.

Senator AUSTIN. But if it were narrowed, if Williamsville Dam were limited, you could not do that; could you?

General ROBINS. No, sir.

Senator BURTON. May I inquire, in order that I may understand precisely what the Senator from Vermont is asking here; the bill as we have it before us passed by the House contains an authorization of $30,000,000 for the Connecticut River Basin, but carries the proviso

That neither this authorization nor previous authorizations shall be construed to authorize the construction of a high dam at the Williamsville site.

I would infer that if the bill should pass as it is now before us, containing that proviso, it would meet the contention of the Senator from Vermont and would prohibit the expenditure of any of this $30,000,000 for a high dam at Williamsville.

Senator AUSTIN. What is a high dam? That is the point.

Senator BURTON. If the bill is passed containing this proviso it would meet your contentions; would it not?

Senator AUSTIN. No; it would not. It does not specify. I think the evidence that is coming on later from residents of the valley will