Mr. Ponsonby maintained there was no disorder, except what was occasioned by him who called for order. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had explained two or three times, and why should not his hon. friend be heard with equal patience?

Mr. Abercromby said that his honourable friend's words were directly in explanation.

Mr. Whitbread stated, that he considered the pledge as given by accepting office, when relinquished on the sole ground of a refusal to consent to any such pledge. Under these circumstances the King had been deceived, unless the gentlemen accepting office understood themselves to be bound

Mr. Yorke and Mr. Fuller then rose.

The Speaker adverted to the inconvenience that must result from allowing these explanations to go into so much length, and thought it better the matter should rest.

General Loftus then stated, in explanation, that the majority of the Catholics of Ireland were in no worse a condition than Protestants of the same rank.

Mr. Fuller denied that he had risen to order, not being remarkable for his knowledge upon that point. But the honourable gentleman on the other side had thrown out a supposition of the existence of a bond, not to concede the Catholic claims, and all that sort of thing. Why, they wished, it was well known, to have continued in power if they could, and great was the noise and lamentation they made when they went out. There was neither boud nor seal here that he could see, and he was sorry that such charges should be made. He recollected, about thirty years ago, that there was a cry to send arms to Ireland, and some gentlemen, fuming and fermenting like a beer barrel, pleaded in favour of the measure.. Accordingly 30,000 stand of arms were sent, and were used in the rebellion against ourselves, for some of these very arms were taken from the Rebels by our troops. He was sorry to say so, but there was something uncongenial-(No, no!) Well-what would you do? Suppose you try this Catholic Emancipation-it would not answer. They would still continue their disturbances under the designation of "Blue Breeches," or some other appellation of the same kind. Nothing could put an end to these agitations, unless the gentlemen of Ireland resided upon their property there, and relieved the

poor tenants, by an abatement of rent and tythes. With regard to the question more immediately before the House, (A laugh) he did not think that the conduct of the Government of Ireland ought to be discussed now. The Duke of Richmond was a brave and generous man, and would never resort to severity when lenity would serve the purpose. But if mildness would not do, he must have recourse to stronger measures. They ought to wait for further information before they entered upon this discussion, that they might see how the whole matter really stood.

Mr. Hutchinson would think himself unworthy of a seat in that House, if he allowed a circumstance noticed by the honourable gentleman who spoke last to pass unnoticed; but in remarking upon it, he would preserve that good humour for which the honourable gentleman himself was generally distinguished. He had been most unhappy in his allusion to the transactions of thirty years ago. He was even inaccurate as to the time, for it was not thirty years since the circumstances which he had so imperfectly described took place. The fact was, that the Irish, ill treated as they had been by Great Britain, asked for arms, and used them in your defence. That gallant nation, having an account still to settle with you, generously lent its aid when it found you in difficulty. Such was their conduct then-and had they since done nothing for you? 2. Wherever your thunder has rolled-east, west, south, or north-have they been absent ? Let that gallant people only stand neuter, and he would ask, where was the power and glory of Great Britain? Let them only remain neuter, and the strength and glory of Britain was at an end. The most glorious of your late triumphs have been not a little owing to the exertions of the gallant people whom the honourable gentleman had this night traduced. He wished to say this with good temper, as far as respected the honourable gentleman, but at the same time with indignation, at finding within the walls of that House so much ignorance of the capabilities of Ireland, either for aggression or defence; and he was sorry to say that the honourable gentleman was not the only one to whom this ignorance extended. With regard to the question more immediately under consideration, he was anxious to know whether this act of the Irish Government had the sanction of the Executive Authority here--for if it should go abroad VOL. II.-1811. S

that this proceeding had been approved by the Regent, and bis Government here (No! no!)-he understood the right honourable gentleman to have said, that he considered this as an act of great prudence on the part of the Irish Government, and that it was approved by the Government here he wished then to know, whether the Regent had instructed his Ministers? (A cry of Order, Order.) -Mr. H. then proceeded to correct the statement of the right honourable gentleman opposite, as to the purposes for which the Convention Act of 1793 had been framed. The design then was to put down an armed association of United Irishmen acting against the Government, and having for its object the complete overthrow of Parliament, It had been stated by the Administration of that day, that the Society in question held communications with France, and that its design was to overturn the Government. The Act was brought in upon the spur of the occasion to prevent the meeting of a Congress at Athlone, having, as had been alleged, these objects in view. Did the right honourable gentleman then mean to say that any such object was to be imputed to the Catholic Committee, the assembly against which the Act was now enforced? He maintained that the right honourable gentleman had not dared to state the facts correctly. Would he say, that the object of this assembly. was not to petition-but to put down the Parliament and redress their own grievances? Did he mean to say, that it held any communication with France? No-he could not lay any such thing to their charge. Their object was clear; they met in order to prepare a petition for the redress of their grievances. In this their design was to refute the assertions of those who had maintained that the majority of the Catholics did not desire emancipation. They wished as far as possible to collect the unanimous sense of the Catholic body, to shew the fallacy of such improbable statements. The law therefore had by this Act been violated-a law, however, which ought to be repealed. as soon as possible, and he intended to give immediate notice to that effect. No difficulty to petition existed in this country, which comparatively was possessed of every blessing. Why then should the difficulty exist in Ireland, where there were so many grievances, and where the exercise of the right to petition was so much the more necessary? But even if the law did apply, he did not. think that under the circumstances it ought to have been

put in execution. If Ireland was in a state so disturbed, notice ought to have been given to the Government hereand if they had notice here, then they were most culpable in not having stated this in the Address, of which the agitations of Ireland ought to have been the most prominent feature. If disturbances existed in Ireland without the knowledge of Ministers, their ignorance was criminal. He concluded by deprecating the dangerous tendency of the system pursued by the Minister, who came down with the Speech to the House at the opening of every session, studiously abstaining from giving any thing like an accurate view of the state of Ireland, and represented this conduct as directly opposite to his duty.

Mr. Fuller admitted the justness of all the encomiums upon the Irish out of their own country, but still main. tained that they had been in rebellion against us.

Mr. Ponsonby would have said but a few words had it not been for the animadversion upon the conduct of those who advocated the Catholic cause in that House. It had been asserted that the tone in which these discussions had been carried on, was calculated to inflame the minds of the people of Ireland, and to produce the irritations unfortunately so prevalent in that country. He totally denied the position, and contended that it was made in the most perfect ignorance of the real state of the case. No, the irritated state of Ireland was not the effect of their speeches. Did the right honourable gentleman (Perceval) think that the Irish were so stupid as not to feel their grievances without being told of them? (Hear, hear!) His mind was filled with astonishment at the ignorance evinced upon points of the last importance, whenever Irish affairs became the subject of discussion. In June last they stated in his Majesty's speech, that though it had been necessary to impose some new taxes, yet they were not such as would interfere with the growing prosperity of Ireland! Where was this growing prosperity? Where was the evidence of

it ?

Was it in this fact that the whole revenue of Ireland for the last year was half a million short of the interest of her debt, without a shilling to support her establishments; or pay her contribution? (Hear, Hear!) Was this too owing to the speeches of the Catholic advocates in Parliament? Could not the people of Ireland know and feel this without hearing of it in Parliamentary speeches? Yes, they knew this, and a great deal more, without being

[COM. informed of their grievances by such means. But it would become gentlemen to take care, and not push too far. Let them beware of driving even moderate people in Ireland to the conclusion that the connection with Great Britain was any thing but a blessing. (Hear! hear!) A gentleman on the other side (Fuller) had adverted to transactions with respect to Ireland thirty years ago, asserting, if he understood him right, that thirty years ago Ireland was in a state of rebellion. He supposed the honourable gentleman alluded to the period when the Irish Volunteers took arms. For what purpose did the people then arm? Why, to allow the Government to employ the regular troops against the French while they themselves performed the duty of excluding the French from the shores of Ireland. (Hear! hear!) The right honourable gentleman (Perceval) alleged that the law was with the Government of Ireland. He was not prepared at present to say that it was; neither would he insist that it was not. But he wanted further information to enable him to decide with certainty whether it was or was not. He wished to have it clearly ascertained whether this assembly had any illegal object in view, except that of petitioning Parliament for a redress of grievances. This was a most material point, because in the last clause of the Act there was a distinct provision, that nothing therein contained should extend to prevent petitioning either the Crown or Parliament for redress. (Hear! hear!) He wanted to get at the minds-the real purposes of the assem bly. If the circular was colourable-if they had illegal objects in view, or any except that stated in the letter, then, indeed, the Irish Government might be justifiable. But to enable the House to judge whether it was so or not, the documents now called for must be produced. This letter of Pole's denominated the Catholic Committee an unlawful assembly, before any step had been taken except that of circulating their letter: but that letter might never have been acted upon. It had not been acted upon; and yet it was necessary to shew some illegal act in order to proye this an illegal assembly. But then it would be said that offences ought to be prevented. True;. but they ought to have waited to see whether any offence was likely to be committed. For his own part, he declared with the utmost sincerity that he knew nothing of any illegal acts committed by this assembly. (Hear! hear!) The Magistrates and the Sheriffs had been ordered to arrest. He was not pre