103 knowledge of the subject, when they must have known that the letter of Mr. Hay had been written for five weeks.. It was curious that Mr. Pole left this country only on the 3d of February, and was not instructed in any respect on this point; but immediately on arriving in Ireland, pub Jished this letter without any communication with the Government there. He might suppose that they thought, that if a communication had been made here, the Prince Regent might have thought a different course more proper to pursue. He saw no ground to excite additional alarmsy except as to the addition to the numbers of the meeting. That was not great, compared with the numbers of the Catholics, and was not a sufficient ground taken alone. Its must therefore be coupled with circumstances which were not to be disclosed to them. Whether the Irish Govern ment were right or not in such a measure, they appeared: wrong in not making a communication previously The noble Secretary of State could not, he thought, have any objection to give information to a Secret Committee.

Lord Grenville said, that the Secretary of State had passed over the strong points of the able and eloquent speech of his noble friend. What was chiefly urged, he prudently left out. In expressing his disapprobation of this intemperate act, let him not (Lord Grenville) be held as a person who would countenance the violation of the laws. On thes contrary, he would always do his utmost to ensure obedience to the law and if it could be shewn that this measure was the only, or the ready and natural mode of prevention of an unlawful meeting, he should agree to it. But as far as be was as yet informed, he saw not the slightest ground for the character and temper of this proceeding, which was obnoxious to the censure of all considerate and impartial men. This letter did not shew to whom it was addressed or sent. Whom did the noble Earl mean to say it was sent to? To all the Catholics of Ireland? Or to what particular persons? Would he profess ignorance on that head? If ignorant, in what a light did the Government stand before their Lordships and the country? It was of much importance to know who they were to whom this letter was sent; for he would admit, that if so large a meeting were assembled by delegation, contrary to law, and for undefined purposes, it would be dangerous to the public peace. (Hear !) There was nothing satisfactory in the letter. They seemed to think that they were not violating the laws;

and therefore the Ministers were bound in justice to lay the grounds before Parliament, and the names or descriptions of those to whom it was sent. There were other points of yet higher importance. They were to judge of the time, the temper, and the tone of this letter of the Irish Secre tary; and above all of the time. Their recent unfortunate debates on the Regency question seemed to have put them out of all thoughts of such a thing as a government. Had the Lord Lieutenant's Secretary the power to do this act without consulting the King's commands, or those of the illustrious person who exercised his authority? The letter could not be defended in any way but on an indispensable urgency, unless the Ministers were prepared to maintain that the Lord Lieutenant's Secretary was actually the Regent of Ireland! (Hear!) Let their Lordships look at the nature of the Government of Ireland. There were many of them who must know the practice of that Government. There ought to be some of them then opposite to him. Would they have done this without taking the King's commands? Such was the constitution of that subordinate Government, that they could do no more without consultation with the Government here, than those Ministers could without the authority of the Prince Regent. Such was the ordinary mode of business, and was surely particularly necessary to be attended to now. What right had they to suppose that the Prince Regent would approve of the act? They had but one answer to make, and that was, that the matter pressed upon them so suddenly as to leave no time for communication. He had anticipated such an answer; but the fact turned out, that the Irish Catholic Secretary's letter was dated January the 1st. In order to judge, let them say how the interval of forty-three days had been employed. He would concede much to them, if they could. shew that it was employed in temperate remonstrances, such as became a mild and benignant government to the feelings of men smarting under a peculiar situation. A wise government would have used every conciliatory method; and if that had failed, though even then he should have condemned the irritating tone which might have been used by an offended government, yet necessity might have arisen for resorting to decisive steps. At present, how the time was employed, he was utterly ignorant. There was no necessity for this step without the Regent's consent. The great point was, not whether the law should be enforced,

but whether the mode was such as was due to the dignity of the Prince Regent, to the peace of Ireland, and the established forms of the government. There was a general idea, and among the worst signs of the times, that there was a disposition to neglect all forms. The Constitution could not be preserved but by attention to forms. He was oldfashioned enough to admire our forms. This transaction was against all forms, as the old mode would have been by proclamation of the Lord Lieutenant in Council. Had the Privy Council been called, there had not been issued a paper, eo nomine, against the Catholics. All communication had been withheld from the Regent, and no proof given of any conciliating endeavours of the Government.

The Earl of Ross thought it probable that the Irish Government had resorted to measures of conciliation before issuing the circular letter. The letter of Mr. Hay was, it was true, dated the first of January; but it did not appear that it was circulated on that day; it was probable that it was not circulated for some days afterwards, and then, perhaps, privately, so that some time would elapse before Government would be apprised of it. It should also be borne in mind, that at the meeting of the Catholic Committee on the 24 of February, a motion was made to rescind the Resolution for circulating this letter, on which, on a division, the numbers were-for it 14, and against it 24; but the votes of those who had been delegated from the counties having been objected to, they were taken from the 24, and the numbers then were 15 to 14 against the motion, which was only lost, therefore, by a majority of one. This being the case, it might be supposed by Government, that a measure carried by so small a majority, would not be persisted in, and they might thus be induced to delay till the last moment resorting to any harsh proceeding. He wished it, however, to be understood, that be did not speak upon this subject with any knowledge of the proceedings of Government, but merely presuming what their conduct might have been. That the Convention of delegates was to be assembled for other purposes than those of petitioning, was evident from the paragraph in Mr. Hay's letter, stating the wish that the managers from the counties might be those whose avocations required, or whose leisure permitted their permanent or occasional residence in Dublin. It was, besides, certain that the petition to Parliament had been finally agreed upon at the meeting of the Catholic ComVOL. II.-1811.

P

mittee on the 2d of February, and directed to be transmitted for the purpose of being presented. He was of opinion, that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland would have deserved to be impeached if he had not used every exertion to put down a Convention of delegates thus illegally attempted to be assembled, and by the assembling of which the public peace would have been seriously endangered.

Earl Grosvenor, in explanation, admitted that the assembling of a Convention of delegates would have been dangerous to the public peace; and observed, that what he meant to say was, that no danger would have arisen merely from the number of Catholics which it was proposed to assemble.

Lord Holland observed, that the noble Earl (Ross) had supposed that measures of conciliation had been resorted to by the Irish Government previous to issuing the circular letter, but what they wanted was the proofs upon the table. It was impossible to take the statement of the noble Earl, founded upon suppositions. Let the documents be laid upon the table, to shew what the conduct of the Irish Government had been. It was whimsical enough that the noble Secretary of State alleged the Catholic Committee to consist of persons who did not speak the sentiments of the Catholics of Ireland, whilst they were held out by the noble Earl (Ross) as the organ of the Catholics, to which Government looked as regulating their movements. How were these contradictory statements to be reconciled? Like Susia in the old play, the Catholic Committee, thus buffeted about, might say, if we are not the Committee of the Catholics, be so good as to tell us what we are." It was said by an eminent man, Mr. Burke, that it was impossible to draw an indictment against a whole nation; but the Irish Government seemed disposed to throw a whole, or threefourths of a nation into gaol. A noble and learned Lord on a former night had said, that the Convention Act was merely a declaratory Act; he (Lord Holland) was afraid it was so; but if it was, he wished to be informed, whether it declared what was previously the common law of Ireland, and if so, how it happened that there was snch a difference between the common law of Ireland and the common law of England, where such was no part of the common law.

The Earl of Donoughmore admitted that the Catholic petition was agreed upon on the 21 of February at the Catholic Committee; but it remained to be signed by ten

107 gentlemen from each county, not as delegates, but to obviate the objection made on former occasions, that the petition was merely the petition of the men of Dublin. If this measure of the Irish Government was to be persisted in, this mode of signing the petition might be prevented, and the petition thus not being the petition approved of in the manner agreed upon by the Committee, their Lordships might have the satisfaction of hearing no more for this session of the Catholic petitions His Lordship took a short historical review of the proceedings of the Catholics, for the purpose of shewing how much they had been misrepresented. The measure now resorted to by the Irish Government would have the effect of still further oppressing them, inasmuch as it placed the means of oppression against them in the hands of every petty tyrant who chose to exercise it.

The motion was put and negatived.-Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 22.

IRISH CIRCULAR LETTER.

Mr. Ward said he rose to move for such papers as might have a tendency to throw light on a late measure adopted in Ireland. Had the production of these Papers been conceded, he should have felt it his duty to have abstained from in anywise entering upon the question; but as this was not the case, he conceived it necessary to say a few words, to induce the House to accede to his motion. The House must be aware of the nature of the Convention Act. Of this Act, the best justification that can be offered is, that it had its origin in bad times; and nothing but actual necessity can in any degree justify its enforcement, for it is calculated to occasion anxiety and irritation on every occasion, when attempted to be put in force. It is incumbent, therefore, on his Majesty's Ministers to make out that neces sity to the satisfaction of the House. He was not disposed to repose any great share of confidence in the administration of the right honourable gentleman at the head of his Majesty's Councils; and if he was disposed to withhold his confidence from him in any one thing more than another,