There are three items in this request that have to do with this subject. The Salmon River station is a small station in Idaho where we collect eggs to use in hatcheries farther down below. It is not a fish hatchery. We need some repairs on it in the amount of $1,175, and a little additional money for increased operations in order to get a large egg take.

Pannel Springs is a trout hatchery. As you notice we ask for increased operations at Carson, Wash., Salmon, Idaho, and Pannel Springs, Va. There are several rehabilitation hospitals located in and about that area, and they are calling for fish all of the time. One of the things that the rehabilitation people like to do is to get the men outdoors while they are convalescing, and to let them fish. We have been supplying fish to ponds and lakes of this area so that they could have the maximum inducement to get out of doors and stay out of doors, and this little $3,000 item for that particular hatchery will enable us to produce a considerably greater number of fish for this

purpose.

REPLACEMENT OF EQUIPMENT AND ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL

The second item is for the replacement of equipment and additional personnel.

We have asked for $60,000 for that particular item, and $35,000 of that is for the replacement of equipment. You gave us $40,000 last year to buy trucks and other equipment, but we are still in need of replacement of many others. This $35,000 which is requested will not replace all.

Much of the equipment we have is old and worn out, and we have not been able to get any new equipment during the war, and the only reasonably good equipment we have is that that we have been able to buy with the money that you gave us this year. That was the first year we have had new equipment.

I have been at fish hatcheries where the best truck they had was 12 or 15 years old and you cannot keep a truck like that running without exorbitant expense for repair and operation. It is just good business to replace them as soon as we can, and to get equipment that will not cost so much to keep it going.

If we get this $35,000 we expect to get 29 pick-up trucks of the small size, the three-quarter ton that we use most, also six larger trucks and various small items of equipment that we actually need

now.

The additional help that we have asked for is simply to make these hatcheries produce as much as possible with the equipment and facilities that we have.

As you know, our personnel has been reduced during the war, and it has not been possible to hire replacements. Under present law we are not allowed to work people more than 40 hours a week, which creates quite a problem, particularly in the smaller hatcheries, where we have only one man or, at most, two men working. During the time that eggs or young fish are in the troughs someone must be at the hatchery every day, and it creates quite a problem, so that we do need additional help in these hatcheries for the purpose of getting reasonably good utilization of the equipment that we have.

Now, I have not asked for any of this kind of help during the war because I knew that we could not get it. At the present time we have

plenty of men who want to work, and we have service men coming back, mostly without too much training, who want to work either on hatcheries, or in some other position in the Fish and Wildlife Service, and we would have no difficulty in recruiting the type of personnel that we need under this item.

EXPANSION OF LITTLE WHITE SALMON STATION, WASHINGTON

There is a $125,000 item for the expansion of the Little White Salmon hatchery in Washington. That was one of the important hatcheries that we had for salmon on the Columbia River. It is an old hatchery, and the building of the Bonneville Pool flooded out all of our ponds. In fact, the water from the pool comes right up to the base of the hatchery.

The White Salmon River is a big spawning stream. It is a place where we can get a lot of salmon eggs, and it is one of the major streams on which we can get eggs to maintain that salmon run. It is one of the important streams of the lower Columbia River tributaries, and it is again a part of this Columbia River program.

We will have to build new ponds and replace some of the buildings at that station which are so close to the water line now that they cannot be used.

Most of the spawning part of the ponds that we use for the small fish are now under water. Whenever the water is at the normal height of the impoundment it is not possible to use the pools. The details of that are set forth pretty well in the justifications. This is one of the items, or one of the places, where we have asked for some construction money.

CORNING, ARKANSAS, AND MERIDIAN, MISSISSIPPI, STATIONS

We had two fish hatcheries that were partly finished at the beginning of the war, and the construction money was impounded and returned to the Treasury so that we did not finish them.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Where are they?

Dr. GABRIELSON. One of them is at Corning, Ark., and the other is at Meridian, Miss.

We are asking for some money to complete the construction of those two hatcheries. They are already partly built, and we are asking for $40.000 for the Corning, Ark., station in order to complete it. This amount will complete the buildings and provide for the construction of some additional ponds and for a fish holding house.

For the one at Meridian, Miss., we are asking for money enough to complete a residence and service building there to take care of the needs of personnel and equipment.

ENGINEERING SURVEYS

The last item making up this unit is $50,000 for engineering surveys and plans for the rehabilitation of a lot of hatcheries that have deteriorated during the war, or that, in some cases, are not adequate in improvements to produce fish with modern methods.

We have a number of hatcheries that were all right when they were built, and for the purpose they were very good, but the water supply is inadequate, and the pipes are too small to bring in sufficient water

so that we can get the maximum fish production with the present methods that we have developed, and we would like to have some money to make a survey of all of these hatcheries, and then work out a long-term program of developing these hatcheries to the greatest possible capacity and with highest efficiency.

I would a lot rather do that than come in here and ask for a lot of new hatcheries.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Now, you can do a lot of surveying for $50,000, can you not? Is there anything about these hatcheries that you do not already know?

Dr. GABRIELSON. But this would be for the actual preparation of the plans for their rehabilitation. We know in a general way what is wrong with them, but when we start to make estimates of what it is going to take to do this work we need some actual engineering survey work done on them.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. If you want $50,000 for some additional surveys, do you have any idea of what the ultimate cost of rehabilitating these hatcheries would be?

Dr. GABRIELSON. No; I do not. Maybe Mr. James does.

Mr. JAMES. No, sir. We are trying to get this fund in order to come up here with some definite figures and get away from the guesswork on it.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Well, I understand, but if you do not mind I would like to have you answer my question, which is, do you have the slightest idea of what the ultimate cost would be of rehabilitating the hatcheries? We would like to have that information before we start on such an ambitious program.

Mr. JAMES. I would say that it might be between $300,000 and $500,000 for the more than 100 fish hatcheries that we have.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. It does not propose any new fish hatcheries?

Dr. GABRIELSON. No, sir; we have no new fish hatcheries in here. As you know, we have one area in New Jersey that we bought and paid for out of an earlier appropriation and you had given us money to start the construction. This was later impounded, and we have never been able to do anything to develop that hatchery. We own the land, and I presume it will be built some time in the future. However, we have nothing in the present Budget for the construction of that particular hatchery.

(An estimate of the over-all rehabilitation expense follows:)

The rehabilitation of fish hatcheries may be divided in a number of categories: (1) To complete those started before the war on which construction was stopped or suspended and a small number of new hatcheries where a definite need has been indicated.

(2) Improvements to existing facilities which were not made during the war period because of the lack of funds, manpower, or material.

(3) Expansion of some of the hatcheries to take care of additional needs as a result of the farm pond program.

(4) Rebuilding others, principally trout stations, because the advancement of biological information has produced new fish-management techniques. This refers to the older trout stations designed to propagate eggs and small fingerlings that are not now suited to the propagation of legalsized trout required for present-day needs. These stations need redesigning and some expansion to adequately take care of the requirements of Federat lands and to coordinate our prorgams with those of the States.

It is estimated that $226,500 will be required to convert to peacetime operation. This will include the cost of completing partially constructed stations and one

or two stations that were closed because they could not be operated efficiently without repairs. Approximately $50,000 was included in these estimates for the more immediate needs.

In addition, approximately, $5,344,680 was estimated to rehabilitate the whole, hatchery system. These estimates are tentative and may be revised as funds for planning become available and more accurate estimates can be made. Many of these facilities are antiquated. Our obligation is to maintain good fishing on public lands under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government and to properly correlate our activities with the separate States. This can only be accomplished if hatchery facilities are properly designed and brought up to date.

COSTS OF MAJOR DEVELOPEMENT PROJECTS, OPERATION, MAINTENANCE, AND REPAIRS

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Are there any questions on this item? Mr. JONES. You mentioned the need for work on this item on account of the dams being built. I wonder if you can tell me how much by direct appropriation, or by transfer of funds from either the War. Department or the Bureau of Reclamation you have spent for construction, operation, maintenance, and repairs, respectively, on account of project works, either irrigation or flood-control dams?

Dr. GABRIELSON. On the Columbia River?

Mr. JONES. On any river throughout the Fish and Wildlife Service. Dr. GABRIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JONES. Then for the next fiscal year what you have in your estimates on account of construction, operation, and maintenance on account of dams that are proposed or authorized. Will you fix up something like that and let me have it?

Dr. GABRIELSON. Yes; but I will have to send to Chicago for that. Mr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. DAY. What is it you are seeking?

Mr. JONES. I am trying to find out how much direct appropriations or transferred funds have been involved in the expenditures of the Fish and Wildlife Service for the construction of capital works or for operation and maintenance or for repairs.

Dr. GABRIELSON. Do you want the total amount? If you do we would have to go back into history for that.

Mr. DAY. For how long a period?

Mr. JONES. Well, I had thought to go back into history, but if it cannot be done, give the most comprehensive figures that you can. Dr. GABRIELSON. I would say that, perhaps, most of it has come in the last 10 years. Before that it was very erratic. It would come in, and a certain project would come along and we might get a transfer of funds to help to do some work on it, but most of it was in the last 10 years.

Mr. JONES. Since starting the multiple-purpose dams?

Dr. GABRIELSON. Yes; since they started. I would say most of it has come in this period.

Mr. JONES. If you can cover a 10-year period, that will be fine. Dr. GABRIELSON. It is going to be awfully small compared to the cost of one dam.

Mr. JONES. That is all right; I just want to get a picture of it to find out what it costs to operate and maintain an establishment as the result of a dam.

Dr. GABRIELSON. Yes, sir.

(The matter referred to is as follows:)

Our records show an investment of $2,943,117 and an operating expense, including salaries, of $203,066.79 for stations in the Columbia River Valley. In

the Sacramento River Valley, there is an investment of $1,093,622 with an annual cost of $110,695. These funds are for the purpose of maintaining migratory fish runs in the two river systems. Some of the construction was under the auspices of the Engineer Corps and the Bureau of Reclamation or other agencies. This does not include the facilities that have been constructed by these agencies and turned over to the States for operation.

Additional constructions are anticipated as the plans for development of these river systems are completed and additional impoundments made.

It is rather difficult to state what the investment is on other river systems, but in the TVA two hatcheries were constructed by the Authority for the purpose of stocking TVA impoundments and one of these was later discontinued as there was no longer a need for it. The other is being maintained at the present time for the stocking of farm fish ponds in the TVA valley.

Other hatcheries have been constructed along the upper Mississippi River, partially for the stocking of the canalized portion of the river. A hatchery was constructed at Inks Dam, Tex. on the Colorado River and one at Elephant Butte, N. Mex., for stocking reservoirs at those two locations. However, the output of all of these hatcheries is partially directed to the stocking of other waters.

PROGRAM IN CONNECTION WITH DAM CONSTRUCTION AND FLOOD CONTROL

Mr. JONES. In the civil functions bill I notice they had projected dam construction and flood control for 6 years ahead. I presume you have your Fish and Wildlife Service plans made that far ahead? Dr. GABRIELSON. We have a statement coming up on that later in the bill, Mr. Jones.

Mr. JONES. Of course, I do not know what is involved in the Fish and Wildlife Service as a result of irrigation and flood-control works, but if you will take up the items and itemize them I would appreciate it very much.

Dr. GABRIELSON. These items for the three hatcheries on the Columbia River are as a result of the development of the Bonneville Dam, and there is some money in here for the operation of certain hatcheries which was made necessary by the development of dams on the Columbia River.

Mr. JONES. I would appreciate your giving as detailed a statement as possible on that.

Dr. GABRIELSON. We will go into as much detail as we can on it, but I cannot guarantee precise accuracy.

Mr. JONES. Make it as accurate as you can..

Dr. GABRIELSON. Yes; we will make it as accurate as we can.

Mr. JONES. Thank you. If you cannot do it this year, I am going to ask you for it next year.

Dr. GABRIELSON. We will give you the best estimate we can, but I would like to have it understood that it will be an approximation, and I doubt that we can get it all. ·

Mr. JONES. Thank you.

(The information may be found on p. 649.)

METHODS OF DEVELOPING PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS

Mr. JENSEN. Doctor, relative to this $50,000 for engineering surveys, for rehabilitation and completion of fish hatcheries, are not your plans and specifications for hatcheries pretty well established? That is, you know, do you not, already, what is needed for a fish hatchery, what kind of a plan, and what kind of construction is needed for an up-to-date fish hatchery? What I am trying to find out is, is