Mr. HAYS. I don't think that this committee wants-if I am misstating the sentiments of the committee somebody speak up, whoever disagrees I don't think this committee wants to encourage you to provide rent-free apartments for individual women or men either, for that matter, all around the world.

The women who come to work in Washington, there are very few of them who can afford an apartment here alone. I don't think we ought to be setting a precedent here that the Government is going to make these people so economically far above Government employees in Washington that we are going to go out and provide them a onebedroom apartment for one person to live in by themselves.

If that is what you are doing, as far as I am concerned I am just not going to vote to give you any more money nor will I manage a bill on the floor to do that.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. The authority already allows us to provide quarters allowance for these people.

Mr. HAYS. I am aware of that, Mr. Del Favero. This committee is a policy committee. We are trying to see that you don't set a policy of providing an apartment for every individual clerk you have around the world.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. If I may, Mr. Chairman

Mr. HAYS. You have got the authority but you haven't got the money, have you?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. Mr. Chairman, we are now providing $1,800 for quarters allowance for single employees. They can go out and get some sort of housing and they will live alone for this $1,800, plus some money out of pocket.

Mr. HAYS. Maybe we better revise your authority to provide them this much money. What is their salary?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. I don't have any idea what their salary is.

Mr. SMITH. $4,000 to $5,000.

Mr. HAYS. You are giving them $1,800 a year quarters allowance. What do you give them when they come back to Washington, if they ever do?

Mr. CROCKETT. They get their salary, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HAYS. $4,000 to $5,000 and they find their own apartment. Mr. CROCKETT. That is right, Mr. Chairman.

I can assure you that we really need these people. Of any kind of people we need, if there is any difference, we need secretarial and clerical. They are difficult to find. It is a high turnover job based on morale, living conditions, and security of post.

In terms of cost to the U.S. Government, the higher the turnover the more cost there is. We turn over about 800 to a 1,000 of these people a year. We have to find them. We have to process them. We have to give them security clearances. We have to send them abroad.

There is no savings to the U.S. Government to provide inadequate facilities for them or facilities that won't attract them. We are in a competitive market. Every other agency of Government, the military and all the others, are in the same market with us.

Mr. HAYS. What do you do about finding people here in Washington?

Mr. CROCKETT. We don't do anything.

Mr. HAYS. You find them readily?

Mr. CROCKETT. We have a lot less trouble finding girls to work here than abroad. They will all go to Paris and London. But to get them out into the Far East and Middle East and Africa, this is difficult. We have to add some conveniences and incentives, not for the officer corps but for the secretarial corps. These people don't have a career. Most of them don't have a career concept at all. They are just in it for 2 or 3 years to see how it is. If we can reduce the turnover it is better for us

Mr. HAYS. Your turnover of 800 to a 1,000, is this your turnover abroad or total?

Mr. CROCKETT. Total.

Mr. HAYS. How much of that is here in Washington?

Mr. CROCKETT. A good percentage of it, of course. I could provide it for the record.

(The Department supplied the following information:)

APPROXIMATE ANNUAL TURNOVER AMONG DOMESTIC CLERICAL STAFF IN THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE

About 59 percent of the clerical turnover during 1965 applied to Washingtonbased personnel. The Department recruited 1,147 clerical personnel between July 1964 and June 1965. Of this number, 669 were civil service employees, hired for work in Washington.

Mr. HAYS. Of these people who stay in, how many come back to Washington? Do you have any problems with them?

Mr. CROCKETT. We are having less and less problems with those coming back. Our problem is not enough places for them to come to, and this is one of the benefits of the Hays bill, Mr. Chairman

Mr. HAYS. You don't have that Hays bill yet. Don't talk about that. You haven't got it through the Senate.

Mr. CROCKETT. We are certainly hoping.

Mr. HAYS. Do you think that we should build single apartments for one girl?

Mr. CROCKETT. Mr. Chairman, I have served at several posts around the world. I must say that I do. I tried to run a house for single girls in Karachi. First it started out with two single girls in a bed-sitting room combination. This just isn't adequate.

Mr. HAYS. Do you mean that you can't get people who are compatible enough to live in a two-bedroom apartment, two people? Mr. CROCKETT. Sure. But when you think about it in a foreign land, and particularly in these places where

Mr. HAYS. I read a letter from one of them and she said she was very much opposed to this rule you had. She couldn't pick up and live with a foreign national but a man could.

Mr. CROCKETT. We do plenty about that. Every week we are looking at these problems. Certainly in terms of the social life and the outside office hours life of people in these foreign lands, the house, their living situation, becomes a center of their social activities.

There aren't so many places to go in some of these foreign countries for single girls. It is important I think they have a place of their own where in off hours they don't have to see the same people they work with every day.

In Washington, you get two girls from different agencies rooming together. In the field they are all working and living together. This becomes a nerve-racking situation

Mr. MAILLIARD. That is what you are going to do if you build a bunch of rabbit warrens here. They are all going to be living in the same building. They are all in each other's pockets anyway. I can't follow it.

Mr. CROCKETT. The other solution to it is to try to find-well, you have two solutions it seems to me. One is to say to all of them, "Find a single room some place." This is very inadequate in the Far East. You don't have people that are renting rooms. rooms to rent like there are in Washington.

There aren't

The other solution is to say, then we will try to find a residence for these people, and in a place like Tokyo you can't find a residence. It is $100,000. That doesn't make any sense it seems to me. So the places that we are talking about are places that have peculiarly difficult problems for people in general, and we are really talking about single people and communicators that have a special problem.

Mr. HAYS. I am not sure that is who we are talking about. How many apartments do you have in Paris, Mr. Del Favero?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. I think there are two large apartment buildings. Mr. HAYS. Just give me the total number of apartments.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. There are 38 in one place and 47 in another. There are five buildings in all.

Mr. HAYS. These are family style apartments, aren't they, or are they for single people?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. These are one-, two-, three-bedroom apartments. Mr. HAYS. How many apartments do you have in London?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. We recently long-term leased a place, I think it was 16 apartments, and then we have 17 in the Carlton Mansions. That is about it. Two buildings. They are mostly for single girls.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Crockett is talking about the Far East. You don't have the problems in London you have in the Far East. There are rooms for rent. There are apartments for rent. There are houses for rent.

The point I am making is that this is easy for the buildings division, and that is what you are moving toward. It is not a matter of what is good for the country, good for the service, or even what is good for the people.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. In London it is a commuting problem. It is the length of travel time. They can go out in the suburbs and take an hour and a half of traveltime.

Mr. CROCKETT. Mr. Chairman, I think the committee ought toMr. HAYS. Let me ask another question.

How many apartments do you have in Bonn?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. In Bonn we have about 460 apartments.

Mr. HAYS. You never go to Bonn that the Germans don't complain about the American ghetto. Never have I been there when that didn't happen, and I have been there a lot of times.

The whole argument that you make about the Far East you can't apply to some of these other places, but you go ahead and do it

Mr. HAYS. Bonn is a separate problem. Housing is short. It is a temporary capital. I have heard all these arguments.

The point is what do you have in Rome? I have been there in a building that has many apartments for staff.

Mr. CROCKETT. I would like to have the committee recognize there are perhaps three different kinds of people.

Mr. HAYS. Only three?

Mr. CROCKETT. There are more. We ought to talk about their needs and our needs for them in the separate categories.

Certainly there is a body of single people. Mainly these single people are secretaries and clerks. Some communications staff. They need one kind of housing in one kind of situation.

You need a group of staff corps people who are in the administrative and consular areas. Their main function is to do technical services at the Embassy. They have little if any official representation responsibilities. Certainly we want all of them to have relationships with the host people. That is a separate kind

Mr. HAYS. If you put them in an apartment they have no relationships with the host people.

Mr. CROCKETT. I agree.

There are the Foreign Service officers who have the major representation function, who have responsibilities for entertainment and who carry our major representation responsibilities with the host government and the host people.

These are the three categories of people we have to think about, in terms of housing.

I couldn't agree more that housing ought to suit U.S. needs, fit U.S. policies first of all. I think what we frankly need to do is look at what we are presenting to you and revise it.

Mr. HAYS. I think you do too.

With that we will adjourn and let you do that.

Mr. MONAGAN. Is there any estimate of what your maintenance. and upkeep expenses would be on this apartment building in Thailand, Bangkok?

Mr. DEL FAVERO. I think we have that.

Mr. CROCKETT. While you are looking this up, I think we must recognize

Mr. HAYS. I would say to you, Mr. Crockett, we told you in Afghanistan, if you will pardon me, and in Mogadiscio and a few places where you have a security problem that we are willing to go along. When we say that, you come in here with staff apartments all over creation.

Mr. CROCKETT. We will review the whole presentation.

Mr. MONAGAN. Just briefly what I would like to ask for here, you have 12 people at $1,800, which is $21,600, and you are going to have a new building costing $250,000. Just taking debt retirement and your interest at 5 percent each you need $25,000 a year. What I wanted to do was get your cost of maintenance so we can see just what it would cost you to do what you are proposing to do here and compare it with present expense.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. I can give it to you. I have it right here.

The maintenance and operating cost on 24 apartments is running around $7,654. The BOE or operating costs about $13,800.

Mr. HAYS. What about your depreciation? When you figure that in, you haven't saved the Government a nickel, have you? You have $20,000 right there you say, 24 apartments. If you put in depreciation on a quarter-of-a-million-dollar thing, it is going to cost you about $1,800 per year per person. So the savings to the taxpayer really doesn't figure in it at all.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. Roughly an average of $2,000 a year for each quarters allowance, 24 apartments we are talking about, would be $48,000, for quarters allowances, so we would save about one-half.

Mr. HAYS. You are not counting anything for depreciation?
Mr. DEL FAVERO. NO.

Mr. HAYS. When you come in here and talk about buildings 20 years old and they have to be replaced, I don't know what your normal depreciation schedule is-in one place you showed us picturesAustralia, where you said these buildings are 20 years old and you have to do them over.

Mr. DEL FAVERO. Those are prefabricated units, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HAYS. I know.

We will try to set a date next week to finish this, if we can.

(Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.)