Q. Fine. We wouldn't want to be in the position of misquoting you. Mr. HAYS. Any further questions? By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Have you ever had any conversations with Mr. Powell about whether or not Mrs. Flores was receiving any of the funds represented by those checks? A. No. Q. Have you had any conversations with Miss Flores about whether she was getting any of those funds? A. No. Q. When was the last time you saw Miss Flores? A. I saw her-she was here Mr. HAYS. Let me ask a supplemental question. When she was up here in August The WITNESS. August. Mr. HAYS (continuing). Complaining to the press, did you see her? The WITNESS. Yes; I saw her. When she was here I saw her briefly. By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Powell's clerk-hire staff in his congressional office? A. Yes; I am. Q. Do you have frequent contact with the people over there from time to time? A. No. Q. Do you go to that office very often? A. No. I am-I find myself so busy around the corner, I don't have the opportunity. Q. Do you know whether Miss Flores has been doing any work in that office during the 89th Congress? A. No: I do not. Q. If she was, you don't know about it; is that right? A. No. Q. Are you acquainted with a Malcolm LaPlace? A. Yes. Q. And what position did he hold on the committee staff? A. He was a member of the staff of the Ad Hoc Subcommittee on the War on Poverty. Q. Did he travel in connection with his duties? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever purchase airline tickets on your credit card for him? A. I may well have been asked to. Q. Let me direct your attention specifically to January of this year. The records show that Mr. LaPlace made a trip to the west coast, California, from January 12 to January 26. Do you recall him going there at that time? A. No. I wouldn't know. The poverty people traveled very extensively and I wouldn't know who went where at what time. Q. I take it then that you didn't have any contact with these people when they were out on their trips; they wouldn't call in and report to you? A. No. Q. And Mr. LaPlace, the same answer would hold for him? A. Yes. Q. Do you have any information indicating that Mr. LaPlace was not attending to his official duties out on the west coast for part of that period I mentioned, January 12 to January 26? A. No. Q. Have you ever heard anything like that? A. No. Mr. TAYLER. That concludes my questioning of the witness, Mr. Chairman. Mr. O'CONNOR. I would like to ask a few questions for clarification. By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. On these three checks that you attached to the voucher, the $541.66, the $197.15, and another check for $197.15 A. Yes. Q. Yes. As I understand it, one of the $197.15 checks was a flight July 27, District of Columbia to Oklahoma City, for Miss Huff, and you have her personal check reimbursing you on that? A. I don't know whom it was for. It isn't indicated on my-on the statement. Q. But you have a personal check from Miss Huff reimbursing you for that? A. Yes. Q. And you also have a personal check from Mr. Powell? A. For that same amount for a ticket purchased at the same time to the same place. Q. That was on a trip from District of Columbia to Oklahoma City. A. Yes, sir. Q. And do I understand there was a cash refund in connection with those tickets or were these tickets not used? A. Well, I don't know. Q. Did Mr. Powell and Miss Huff obtain cash refunds on certaina certain portion of these tickets? A. I have no record of that. Q. You don't. How many prior vouchers to this one, where Mr. Stone indicated certain travel to be reimbursable, have you received indications that travel was reimbursable? A. I have one other listed here and I am trying to remember if I recall any others. The only other that I recall, I would like to give you the information: July 2, 1965, a check from Chairman Powell, No. 339, in the amount of $267.75. Q. 267 A. 75. Q. Seventy-five. A. For purchase on-no, it was listed on the June 30, 1965, Eastern Airlines statement and it was for reimbursement of a New York City to Miami ticket purchased May 21, 1965, on Chairman Powell's credit card in the amount of $175.98. Mr. DICKINSON. $175.98? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. And on the same date on the same card, Washington to Chicago, in the amount of $1.77. By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. How much? A. $91.77, making a total of $267.75, the amount of the check. A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, you have no indication of reimbursement for that March 28, 1965, travel by Mr. Powell's son and the other three passengers? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know a person by the name of Lloyd Mitchell? A. Yes. Q. Who is Mr. Mitchell? A. I just know him as a man who resides in our district in New York City. Q. Does he perform services for Mr. Powell in any way? A. I do not know. Q. Have you ever met him? A. Yes, sir. Q. On how many occasions? A. I don't remember. I met him socially. He is not a person that I would see frequently. Q. Do you know his occupation? A. No, sir. Mr. O'CONNOR. I have no further questions. Mr. TAYLER. I have some more. By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Mrs. Dargans, you said that one of the persons who used your credit card to purchase a ticket on March 28, 1965, on the New York shuttle was a Miss Upshur. A. Yes. Q. Right? And I believe you identified her as a clerk in Mr. Powell's congressional office? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, do you know whether or not Miss Upshur was engaged in any official business in connection with her employment when she made that trip on that ticket? A. No, sir. Q. Did you have any conversation with her about the purpose of her going to New York on that occasion? A. No, sir. Q. One more question. Do you know whether Miss Upshur claimed any per diem for that trip on March 28, 1965? A. I do not have a record of it going through my office. Q. And if she had, you would have a record? A. Should have. Q. And you would recall it now? A. I would record it and Q. You would record it? A. Yes. Mr. TAYLER. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HAYS. Mr. Dickinson? Do you have questions? Mr. DEVINE. I have three very short unrelated questions. Mr. HAYS. Do you want to have a break? Or they say they can finish in 10 or 15 minutes. The WITNESS. That is fine. Mr. DICKINSON. I will be as brief as possible. Some of this may be repetitious. If it is, I just missed it the first time we went over it. Getting back to the tickets purchased on March 28, if I understood what you said, there were a group gathered this was on a Sunday; wasn't it? The WITNESS. Yes. Mr. DICKINSON. A group gathered at someone's home socially. You were present, Lillian Upshur was present, Pearl Swangin was The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. Jack Duncan and Adam Clayton Powell III, and the chairman, Mr. Powell, and others were there socially? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. As it all turned out, Mr. Powell said: I want you to get them a ticket back to New York and take them out to the airport and use your credit card and send them back to New York on your credit card And in effect that is what you did? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. And that was what Mr. Powell told you to do. All right. You didn't know your name was to be used on there, but you didn't object when it came in? The WITNESS. No, because he had authorized it to me personally in their presence. Mr. DICKINSON. I understand. I am not trying to be argumentative, I just want to clear it up. The WITNESS. I just wanted to explain. Mr. DICKINSON. He knew who was to use these tickets and you knew who was going to use them and the recipients knew it was going to be charged to Government. Did any of these people other than Miss Upshur have any official committee business? Now, as chief clerk you should know. The WITNESS. Not that I know. Mr. DICKINSON. They could well have official committee business without you having some knowledge of it, couldn't they? The WITNESS. The chairman could have some official business with them that I needn't necessarily know about. Mr. DICKINSON. You know it was a social gathering, they were just going home when the party was over; isn't that right? The WITNESS. Well, first of all, it wasn't a party. Mr. DICKINSON. I said a social gathering. All right. When the gathering was over The WITNESS. I don't know what their business with the chairman was here. Mr. DICKINSON. Now, Adam Clayton Powell III is not on the payroll, is he? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. Has he ever been? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. How old is he, incidentally; about 20? The WITNESS. Exactly 20. Mr. DICKINSON. Jack Duncan, is he on the payroll? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. Is he now, has he ever been? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. What relationship does he bear to the chairman, Mr. Powell? The WITNESS. I do not know. Mr. DICKINSON. As far as you know, it is only social? The WITNESS. As far as I know. Mr. DICKINSON. They are not related in any way or have business engagement or association? The WITNESS. I do not know. Mr. DICKINSON. What about Pearl Swagin, what relationship does she bear to Mr. Powell? The WITNESS. I do not know. Mr. DICKINSON. None as far as you know? The WITNESS. As far as I know. Mr. DICKINSON. Lillian Upshur is an employee of the committee? The WITNESS. Of the congressional staff. Mr. DICKINSON. Of the congressional staff? The WITNESS. That is right. Mr. DICKINSON. She does not work or live in Washington? The WITNESS. No; she is based in New York. Mr. DICKINSON. I see. Did this group come down that day? The WITNESS. I don't know when they got here. Mr. DICKINSON. You don't know how they arrived either? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. Or how their transportation was paid for in coming to Washington? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. You do know about the return from Washington to New York? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. Thank you. Do you know for what purpose-we have asked you if you knew for what purpose they came. You said you don't know what purpose. The WITNESS. I don't know. Mr. DICKINSON. All right. The name Walter H. Huber was mentioned and you said that is his son. Is he Mr. Powell's son, or did I misunderstand you? The WITNESS. No; former Congressman Huber's son. Mr. DICKINSON. Oh, all right; thank you. On your Miami trip, April 13, you have mentioned four people with whom you talked relative to the poverty program. Did you have a formal meeting? |