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Also may we have the percentage of your total sales that you subcontract and the percentage that goes to small business so that we can get a little more accurate picture of the trend.

Mr. BOARDMAN. Yes.

Mr. CORMAN. It looks to me, just on the surface, that for the last 18 months small business is holding up pretty well. It would be useful to us to know what the percentage is, and that is on dollar volume, not on the number of contracts.

Mr. BOARDMAN. Equivalent sales or equivalent costs; percentage of our cost, for example?

Mr. CORMAN. Well, either way, so we may use the same figures.
Mr. BOARDMAN. I just wonder if it's the same ball game.
Mr. CORMAN. Percentage of sales, I suppose.
Mr. BOARDMAN. OK, we'll be happy to do that.
(The information requested follows:)

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Mr. CORMAN. Fine. Thank you, gentlemen, very much.

1568* $2.744.966.76

$2,904,345 42

I suppose you miss the traffic on the Hollywood Freeway over here in this beautiful community of Ogden.

Mr. BOARDMAN. Not really.

Mr. HUMPHRIS. I might add that we do have a very active small business program we pursue on all our procurement.

Mr. BOARDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. CORMAN. Our next witness is Mr. Harvey S. Howarth, partner of Weber Office Supply Co.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the record should show that there has been a change in the Weber Office Supply Co., and he is now Mr. Harvey S. Howarth, president of the Weber Office Supply Co., Inc.

Mr. CORMAN. Mr. Howarth, we are pleased to have you here.
Do you have a prepared statement?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes.

Mr. CORMAN. Proceed.

TESTIMONY OF HARVEY S. HOWARTH, PRESIDENT, WEBER OFFICE SUPPLY CO., OGDEN, UTAH

Mr. HOWARTH. My name is Harvey S. Howarth. I am president of Weber Office Supply Co., a small business located in Ogden, Utah. This company was established in 1946 and is a wholesale-retail outlet for office supplies, equipment, and machines. In addition, we do contract maintenance and repair of office machines.

In 1958, when the major defense contractors first came to Utah, our work force was 12 people. We became aware very early in the defense programs that the defense contractors, particularly Thiokol and Marquardt, were willing to make a special effort to do business with us locally rather than place their orders with the larger companies located elsewhere in the country.

As a result of this added business base, we have been able to increase our work force to 30 people. Not only has this offered job opportunities to our employees in Ogden, but it has served as a base for us to maintain a stable business which can better serve the business community of the Salt Lake Basin. Especially, this added volume has afforded us the opportunity to maintain reasonable inventory levels, thus assuring better deliveries and competitive prices.

In addition to the defense contractors who have been most cooperative in supporting us during the trying times of expansion, we have enjoyed a substantial level of business, all obtained on a competitive basis, from the defense installations in the area and the new Internal Revenue Service facility in Ogden.

As a result of our expanded business activity, we have become authorized distributors for several lines of office supplies, machines, and related equipment. Several of these lines have published GSA catalogs. The catalogs show Weber Office Supply as the authorized distributor in the area. This arrangement gives us an opportunity to compete pricewise with larger firms on these commodities.

We do have a selling job to do to make the Government agencies in the area aware of this situation.

I would like to summarize my position as a typical small businessman in Utah as follows:

1. The defense contractors as well as the Government installations in the area have been most cooperative in soliciting our services whenever possible. In our line of business it is always possible to do business with big business if you choose to do so.

2. We believe that our modest success has to a large measure been attributable to the extraordinary effort of these people to do business with small business.

3. We believe that as a typical small business we can compete, give better service and respond more rapidly than can large business if given the opportunity.

Gentlemen, I am honored to tell the story of Weber Office Supply to you. I will be happy to answer any questions regarding our business activity with the defense community or other agencies in the area.

Mr. CORMAN. Mr. Howarth, it is a pleasant experience for this committee to find a happy small businessman. May I ask whether you do any business with GSA?

Mr. HOWARTH. Very little. That is our one complaint.

Mr. CORMAN. I knew we would find a common ground.

I wonder if you would tell us your experience.

Mr. HOWARTH. I shouldn't really say that. In certain lines we do little business, but we have many lines that are available to GSA. As I said, it's our own fault, and we have a selling job to do, because the Government agencies may order from Denver or somewhere else when it could be ordered locally. Our name is in the catalog.

Mr. CORMAN. Are you aware of the GSA mandatory percentage discount on their purchases?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes.

Mr. CORMAN. What if any effect does that have on your ability to do business with the Government?

Mr. HOWARTH. Well, we don't get much of a chance to sell GSA except with machines and published GSA catalog items like Underwood Olivetti. I have a list of them here: Artmetal has certain files, plan files and things like that, posting indexes, visible record equipment, Pendoflex hanging folders, Underwood-Olivetti, Gestetner, Standard duplicators, Stenorette dictating machines, Kodak copiers, and so forth.

Mr. CORMAN. For those products that you sell to GSA, are you required to give a percentage discount?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes. These are in the GSA catalog, and they are GSA items. The prices are already decided in Washington. We have nothing to do with the pricing.

In other words, if someone wants to buy an Olivetti item, for example, if Hill Field wishes to buy an Olivetti typewriter, they have a GSA catalog and the GSA price, and we furnish it at that price.

Mr. CORMAN. You are on the suppliers list of GSA for those items? Mr. HOWARTH. Yes, sir: for those items. On many, many other items there is no GSA price. They buy them direct from the manufacturer, I suppose. They don't buy them here.

Mr. CORMAN. Are there any other product lines that you think you are capable of supplying to GSA users in this area that you are not supplying?

Mr. HOWARTH. Well, regular standard office supplies, provided we could sell them cheap enough. They buy them very, very cheap, probably at our cost.

Mr. CORMAN. The Government users can buy these supplies at the same cost that you buy them?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. CORMAN. You don't know whether GSA buys them from wholesalers or not.

Mr. HOWARTH. No. They are shipped to the users.

Mr. WILLIAMS. One point I think interesting that was mentioned by Mr. Stoner before the hearing, Mr. Chairman, concerned Thiokol's business with the Weber Office Supply. It is a good point for all small businessmen. He pointed out that all small businessmen want more business, but Weber Office Supply has gotten their business because,

for example, every Tuesday morning, Mr. Howarth is at their door ready to provide good service. The reason for his success, primarily, has been his business techniques. It has been a real joy for Thiokol, a large business, to do business with the Weber Office Supply.

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes. sir. They, however, do not have GSA. They cannot buy GSA. Pencils, paper clips, and items like that they still buy on the open market, whereas the defense agencies can't do that. They have to buy from GSA.

Mr. CORMAN. Suppose you sell two Underwood-Olivetti typewriters. You sell one to Defense Supply Agency and one to Thiokol. Is there any difference in the price?

Mr. HOWARTH. I think they would be the same.

Mr. CORMAN. The same price?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes.

Mr. CORMAN. Each of them would buy at the GSA price?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes, because I think they get the same discount as GSA.

They would get the GSA price. They are entitled to it.

Mr. CORMAN. What about the customer who walks in off the street? Mr. HOWARTH. He doesn't.

Mr. CORMAN. What is the percentage difference?

Mr. HOWARTH. You've got me. I really don't know. There are two published price lists, and I don't have them here. I could let you know. Mr. CORMAN. It would be interesting to know. Is it cheaper to do business with the Government or with the large corporations than it is for you to do business with the customers off the street?

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes, because we have so many more calls to make, and we still have books to keep and deliveries to make. It's just as easy to deliver a $500 order as it is a $3 order in many cases.

Mr. CORMAN. The volume that you do with the Government makes up for the discount you are required to give.

Mr. HOWARTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. CORMAN. Mr. Williams?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Does GSA bidders list broaden the area geographMr. HOWARTH. We cover the State. north to Soda Springs, Idaho, and east to Evanston, Wyoming. That is generally as far as we go. Mr. WILLIAMS. I have no other questions.

Mr. CORMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Howarth.

Mr. HOWARTH. Thank you.

M. CORMAN. We are pleased to have your testimony.

The next witness is Mr. Charles J. Moxley, director, Clearfield Job Corps Center. Mr. Moxley, do you have a prepared statement? Mr. MOXLEY. Yes.

Mr. CORMAN. Proceed, Mr. Moxley.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES J. MOXLEY, THIOKOL CHEMICAL CORP., DIRECTOR, CLEARFIELD JOB CORPS CENTER

Mr. MOXLEY. Mr. Chairman and counsel, my name is Charles J. Moxley, I have been employed by Thiokol Chemical Corp. for 10 years, the first 8 years in the corporate office as director of contracts, legal, and materiel activities, the last year as center director and general

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manager of the Clearfield division and, prior to that, as director of administration.

In the various positions which I have held I have had an opportunity to see the interest and thoroughness with which Thiokol has participated in the Small Business Administration program. There is no question but that the corporation is fully in sympathy with this program. The corporate management has directed all of the divisions to observe, not only the letter, but the spirit of the Small Business Administration Act.

I certainly concur in the thoughts which have been expressed by Mr. Lyle Stoner, general purchasing agent of Thiokol's Wasatch division. As you will observe from Mr. Stoner's comments and those of Mr. Page, who is the manager of materiel and contracts administrator at our Clearfield division, the procurement activities at Wasatch and Clearfield are entirely different.

The Wasatch division in the defense industry has to procure items which are qualified and which are frequently high-dollar items limited as to source. At the Clearfield division, on the other hand, we are essentially operating an educational and vocational institution, and our procurement is for items such as would be used by a school or vocational institution.

I am pleased to introduce Mr. A. C. Page, who has been with Thiokol for 8 years in procurement activities, and who has personal knowledge and has had detailed experience with the administration of the small business program at the Clearfield division.

Thank you for this opportunity to participate.

TESTIMONY OF A. CURTIS PAGE, JR., THIOKOL CHEMICAL CORP., MANAGER, SUBCONTRACTING, CLEARFIELD JOB CORPS CENTER

Mr. PAGE. Mr. Corman, counsel for the subcommittee, ladies and gentlemen, my name is A. Curtis Page, Jr. I am manager of materiel and contract administrator for Thiokol Chemical Corp., Clearfield Division. This division of Thiokol operates and manages an urban men's center at Clearfield, Utah, for the educational and vocational training of approximately 1,300 socially deprived young men drawn existing warehouse space for vocational training use, hiring and training center is operated under the auspices of the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) with headquarters in Washington, D.C.

Our division of Thiokol is relatively new. Our initial contract with OEO was issued April 1, 1966, and called for the establishment of a fully operational center within a period of 6 months from the contract award date. This included the design and complete modification of existing warehouse space for vocational training use, hiring, and training of staff, preparation and organization of course media, and the establishment of all the necessary support functions required to oper ate a training center.

In the accomplishment of this task Thiokol made use of the background and experience of many Thiokol-trained administrative personnel, among whom were several who had received valuable years of experience in aerospace work under Air Force Procurement Instructions (AFPI) and Armed Services Procurement Regulations (ASPR) guidelines, including the requirements of the Small Business Administration. Thiokol, as a corporation, and the Utah divisions

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