countries, particularly in Mexico, that apparently serve to stimulate illegal immigration to the United States. In other words, we tend to try to deal with the problem at its terminal point rather than its point of origin.

I believe the American public can be better served if we approach the problem first by gathering verifiable data, analyzing the social and economic impact of illegal aliens, and examining various elements and financial initiatives that our country may be able to take in concert with the Republic of Mexico in order to resolve the problem.

As I indicated in my prepared statement, which I have submitted, I will offer legislation in the near future to establish a commission that would carry out what I consider to be these necessary steps.

That summarizes my statement, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to appear. I will be delighted to try to respond to any of the committee's questions, so I throw myself on the tender mercies of the committee at this point.

Senator DECONCINI. Senator Tower, we thank you for your statement.

I know your experience in a border State far exceeds mine in serving in the Senate. I have some great reservations about this legislation.

I wonder if you have given some thoughts about the timing, that is, if it is the proper time to address this problem or if we are moving too fast. I wonder if you have any response to that.

Senator TOWER. It is certainly the proper time to address the problem. I think that we need to move with what the courts once called "all deliberate speed," but I think the deliberate aspect of that is very important.

I think it is important that we act on the basis of verifiable data. I have time and again asked county officials in my State if they could give me an estimate on how many illegal aliens there are in their respective counties. They never venture to give me an estimate. They usually say: "Well, there are quite a few," or something like that.

So, I do not think we have any idea about the numbers we are dealing with.

The reason this is a problem in the first place is because it impacts on job opportunities for our own citizens. I do not see how you solve that problem simply by declaring an amnesty, for example, when you have no idea how many jobs we are talking about and no idea what the economic impact would be and how it would impact on job opportunities or jobs for our own citizens.

We have no idea what the impact would be on our schools and no idea what the impact would be on our welfare rolls. So, as I see it right now, we are shooting in the dark.

Yes, I think we should move in a timely fashion.

Senator DECONCINI. Do you think we can accumulate that data? That is one of the problems I have always had, that is, how do you find out this? That is one of the arguments I think you will hear, or at least I have heard, from the administration. I have not necessarily bought it, that is, of finding out how many are here. I

am really perplexed on how you think you can get a handle on the numbers.

Senator TOWER. I do not think we have made an effort to find out. I do not think that we have taken the steps necessary to try to find out, not only how many, but where they are located. So, we have no idea what the regional impact would be.

So, I think every effort should be made to gather that information first.

If you declare an amnesty and have a program all laid out, you do not know how many people are going to take advantage of it. You do not know whether it is 2 million or 20 million. There is no idea at all.

So, we are simply dealing with the problem, I think, at its terminal point. We are proposing here an expenditure of $57.5 million. That is almost as much as we appropriate for the Immigration and Naturalization Service to patrol the border.

So, that does not seem to make a great deal of sense to me. All at once we are going to declare an amnesty and then impose civil and criminal liabilities on employers for hiring people who are not citizens or legal aliens. that will adversely impact, in my State particularly, on Mexican-American citizens, because some small employers in particular are going to be reluctant perhaps to take a chance. Anybody who has an appearance of being a member of an ethnic minority could be discriminated against under such circumstances.

That is what we want to avoid because we have made great progress in my State in expanding job opportunities for MexicanAmerican citizens. We have not gone nearly as far as we would like, however, in moving this community into the mainstream of the business community and in breaking down barriers of discrimination.

As I see it, this legislation is going to exacerbate a problem that we have made some steps toward solving.

Senator DECONCINI. Senator, outside of this legislation, I know the President and the administration has put forward some other efforts. One is a substantial increase in the border patrol. I think it is in the range of some,2,200 additional people.

Would you care to comment on that?

Senator TOWER. I favor that. I am strongly in favor of that because the border is inadequately manned right now, not just in terms of manpower, but in terms of resources as well.

Senator DECONCINI. I find the same to be true in Arizona.

Thank you. I have no further questions.

Senator Scott?

Senator SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Tower, how about the people on the other side of the border? Do the Mexicans attempt to keep their citizens from crossing the border into the States?

Senator TOWER. No; they do not. Mexico has some rather severe economic problems. We have been confronted by another problem on our border and that is the devaluation of the peso, which always impacts adversely on our own border economy in Texas. Of course, the reason for that is the current economic problems that exist in

Mexico now. That creates, of course, an incentive for people to

come across.

That is why I suggest that it would be very wise for us, in concert with Mexico, to provide some sort of assistance to them in getting their economy back on its feet. I know there is resistance to foreign aid in the Congress a lot of times, but in this instance I think it would certainly be in our own national interest. What we must consider also is that we have always maintained a very stable trade balance with Mexico. They buy much more from us than we buy from them.

Senator SCOTT. Do you think some agreement, then, could be worked out where we would give them an incentive and they would agree to police their own border and make an effort to keep their citizens from crossing the border?

Senator TOWER. I think rather than the matter of policing their border, the better step is to try to help them improve their economic conditions. I do not wish to get involved in Mexico's politics, but their previous president, in fact, did not create a very good climate of cooperation with the United States. As a matter of fact, he used the United States as a political scapegoat.

Right now, the present administration in Mexico under President Portillo has a much more friendly disposition toward us. I think we have a better climate now of potential cooperation.

Senator SCOTT. Actually, my question was this. If we would enter into an agreement, whereby we would help them economically—if that is what would be most helpful to them-then would a quid pro quo here help? We would help them in some way and they would help us with the illegal entries.

Senator TOWER. I certainly think that could be an element in it, but I still think the principal thing is economic development. We have cooperated with them on other matters such as drugs, screw worms, and so forth. There are many areas of cooperation between the United States and Mexico. I see no reason why we could not expand on that to include, perhaps, better policing of the border. But we do not want to encourage them to build a Berlin Wall along the Rio Grande River, either.

I think in the final analysis the improvement of their economic conditions is going to be the thing that contributes most to the solution of these problems.

Senator SCOTT. On the question of amnesty, the bill before us puts a date of January 1, 1970. The persons entering before that date apparently would be recorded as having had lawful admission for permanent residency.

As of January 1, 1970-that is not quite 8 years ago-would you have any kind of amnesty for that? If so, what would appear to you to be a reasonable period of years?

Senator TOWER. I would not want to proceed on the amnesty thing until we have viable data to work from. So, I will not commit myself to that at this point.

Insofar as the date is concerned, how do you determine who was here prior to that time?

Senator SCOTT. I have heard through the media that setting this date has encouraged additional aliens to cross the border feeling

that in a short period of time they could be legal residents of the United States. Do you feel there is any merit to that?

Senator TOWER. I think you have to consider the kind of precedent you set here. Is this going to be a precedent for dealing with alien problems in the future? Once they have come in illegally, you would declare them to be legal and solve the problem in that way? That is a nonsolution to our problem. That could mean that the problem could expand into many other countries of this world which are suffering adverse economic circumstances right now. We could see the origins of great numbers of illegal aliens developing in other parts of the world.

Senator SCOTT. Thank you.

Senator TOWER. By the way, Mr. Chairman, I want to commend you for your cosponsorship of S. 1066 to create an Office of Hispanic Affairs. I hope we can get some movement on that legislation. Senator DECONCINI. I do also.

Senator TOWER. I think that will be a very constructive move in trying to better serve the second largest ethnic group in the United States.

Senator DECONCINI. Thank you very much.

Our next witness is the distinguished Senator from Oklahoma, Senator Bartlett.

Senator, we are pleased to have you with us here today. If you have a full prepared statement, we can enter it into the record. You may proceed to highlight it if you so wish.

STATEMENT OF DEWEY F. BARTLETT, SENATOR, FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA, ACCOMPANIED BY THOMAS WASINGER, LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANT TO SENATOR BARTLETT Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Senator Scott. If it is agreeable with the Chairman, I will read my statement. Senator DECONCINI. That will be fine.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you and the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak before you on a subject that is a matter of great concern to me.

One of the most significant and perplexing problems confronting the United States is the question of how to deal with the presence of illegal aliens in this country. While others appearing before the committee will undoubtedly wish to discuss the causes of the problem, and the impact it is having on this country, my purpose today is simply to explore briefly what I believe to be some of the alternatives available to us as we attempt to come to grips with the problem of illegal aliens.

I might also add that my proposals are embodied in S. 993, a bill which I have cosponsored with my colleague, Senator Packwood. During the past few years, the suggestion most frequently mentioned when discussing the flow of illegal aliens into this country is tht we impose some sort of penalty on employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens. I suspect that this idea will ultimately end up as part of whatever enforcement package we choose to adopt to combat this problem. The President has included such a provision in his package of proposed solutions.

The evidence seems to indicate that there are some employers who deliberately encourage the importation of illegal aliens. They

hope to thereby enjoy the benefits of paying less for labor, and also, no doubt, to escape payment of some related government regulations that might otherwise apply, such as the minimum wage law and various payroll deductions. The imposition of a stiff penalty seems appropriate in this case.

As we consider the possibilities of penalties on employers, I think we must be aware of the legitimate labor needs of many employers. Particularly for those involved in the growing harvesting of seasonal, labor-intensive crops, there is a definite need for a large number of field workers at particular times of the year.

I, therefore, believe that while we tighten the restrictions on illegal entry, we must, at the same time, make provision for the legal entry of such aliens as may be necessary to harvest these crops where domestic labor is not readily available.

The determination of such labor needs should probably be made by persons who have first-hand familiarity with the labor needs of the affected area, such as the Governor of the State involved.

Then the Immigration and Naturalization Service could allow into the country, for a limited period of time, the number of workers necessary to harvest the crops.

The chairman, and I am certain the distinguished Senator from Virginia, remembers the situation last year in the harvesting of apples in Virginia. I was there this past weekend and discussed the matter with one of the apple producers. I learned that he and his colleagues had to pay very large legal fees in order to have the law enforced so that they could bring in greatly needed workers to harvest the crop that otherwise would have just spoiled on the ground or on the trees.

So, I think this is a very important part of any legislation. I believe that this would also apply to the chairman's State in the harvesting of crops there.

I realize, Mr. Chairman, that this proposal is very similar to the bracero program which was tried in the past. I know that that program was surrounded with substantial controversy.

But, I believe it is essential that the legitimate labor needs of food producers be met. In addition, jobs of this sort are not ones that are likely to attract substantial numbers of American work

ers.

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One additional concern which I have with a program that imposes penalties on employers is the administrative, or paperwork, burden that might be imposed.

As a member of the Small Business Committee, I have become increasingly aware of the adverse effects which Government rules and regulations can have, and do have, on legitimate business operations-particularly the small and medium-sized ones.

In the context of the illegal alien problem, the problem will be in determining just how an employer is supposed to tell which of his job applicants are legal aliens, illegal aliens, or citizens.

Or, to approach it from a slightly different perspective, how does an employer who is confronted with charges that he has employed illegal aliens go about providing that he had no knowledge of their illegal status?

There is one proposal which has been made that I think has considerable merit to it. That is the idea of upgrading the social