it exactly, I am a little bit concerned that a lot of rhetoric is targeted at getting rid of people who are between 40 and 55. As you are going through these cutbacks, I think you should look agencywide across-the-board and not just focus on so-called middle management.

I worry a little bit about the negotiations with the unions, because many of the people that you are going to RIF are not in the unions and, therefore, there is no one to speak out for them. So, as you go through this process, I am going to watch and question from where the various cuts have come.

But be careful. Just because a person is mid-management or mid-level, doesn't mean that he or she is necessarily excess. This may be a key scientist who is working on safety somewhere.

Secretary PEÑA. That is a good point, Congressman. I know that in my previous capacity as mayor of Denver we had a buy-out program and a lot of it worked. But there were a few other issues or unintended consequences that we hadn't thought through very carefully. One was that we lost some good people. So we are mindful of that.

I have had personal experience in this area. I am glad you raised the question about middle management. It is not that we are focused on the people themselves. We are trying to replicate what has been successful in the private sector and that is to flatten the bureaucracy.

When I get a document that has been read by eight other people, I am not sure why eight other people had to read it before I got it. I am not sure what they did to that document to make it significantly better by the time I got it. We are trying to flatten the organization, and at the same time preserve those people who have direct hands-on work with people, with agencies, with governments, with our constituents, with our customers. We think that would increase the quality of the work that we do and our overall efficiency. So we will be mindful of your concern. We are looking at other areas, also. We are also looking at consolidation. We are looking at how we can streamline some of the functions that we have in the Department. So it goes beyond just the question of middle management, but how we can be more efficient as an organization.

Mr. WOLF. I appreciate that. I think you will be sensitive. I think it is the changing of the culture in the way of thinking around the agency, as much as targeting people that you are going to get rid of.

There is a very deep morale problem now within the federal work force and in most agencies; they are very concerned. When you talk about mid-level, the woman who stopped thalidomide from coming into the country, was a mid-level employee at the Food and Drug Administration. So I think we have to be careful.

BUDGET SAVINGS INCENTIVES

Mr. WOLF. Let me give you an idea. I put an amendment in my other appropriations bill that passed. The full Committee opposed it for many years, but last year Mr. Hoyer and I worked together and it was accepted and I may offer it in this committee. At the end of the fiscal year, career people are walking down the hall, and

noting that there is all of this money left to spend. Do you need new rugs or draperies?

In every congressional office throughout this administration and every other administration, the month of September is characterized by people calling congressional offices saying we want to let you know we are giving a contract out to X, Y, Z in your district. Because at the end, you don't want to come down not having spent the money. If you don't spend the money, then you come up before the Appropriations Committee and they say, well, you didn't use

this.

I think you need some form of savings incentive. I would like to know what your thoughts are. I am thinking of offering the Treasury appropriations language to give agencies the incentive to take advantage of savings. And perhaps 50 percent of that savings goes back to the Treasury to reduce the deficit, with the remaining 50 percent retained by the agency to fund critical programs and meet needs. Also, a portion of the savings could provide bonuses for Federal employees who come up with the cost-savings ideas.

Now, we are not talking about the Park Service shutting down a national park like Yellowstone, just to save money. We are talking about creatively changing the way that things are done. You have so much creative talent in your agency that would love to participate. And, if you could give them a reward for saving money, it also helps the deficit. It helps the agency change its way of thinking, provides the agency more funding, and also gives employees some incentive to help find further savings.

Would you be supportive of that?

It also is law for GSA and IRS.

Secretary PEÑA. I do support the concept. Interestingly, when the Vice President came to the Department to talk to our employees, that example came up in one of the questions and answers between the Vice President and I and the employees. We talked about how we could give people incentives to do the right things, and that is precisely what you are saying.

Mr. WOLF. Let us give you the language that we put in the other appropriations bill. Sometimes Congress doesn't like it, because you take a little authority away from the Congress for that period of time. But by doing things better, you can save some money. So we will get the language to you, because I would like to offer an amendment that you feel comfortable with, if possible.

ADVANCED AUTOMATION SYSTEM

Mr. WOLF. I am worried about the Advanced Automation System. And I saw an interview of the Chairman in the National Journal or one of the magazines, and I share his views with regard to the FAA. I commend Mr. Carr for those comments. I have the same feelings. And I expressed those feelings to you.

I sat in a committee room on this floor 10 years ago when Lynn Helms testified on the AAS, and I think at that time, it was going to cost $2.5 billion. We all know what has happened. My concern is-and there are two questions-is something else ready to pop? And then the other question is this: I have this IG memo here which talks about reviews by the Defense Contract Auditing Agen

which will specifically address IBM estimating system deficiencies. The report will include recommendations for IBM to correct existing estimating system deficiencies.

We recommend FAA take prompt action to ensure IBM make changes to its estimating systems to correct the deficiencies identified by DCAA now. DCAA has not received adequate technical assistance from the FAA. Without technical assistance, DCAA has not been able to reach a definitive conclusion regarding the acceptability of IBM's judgmental methods and assumption for proposing

costs.

DCAA has attempted without success to obtain technical evaluation from FAA.

FAA has severely restricted DCAA access to AAS technical guidance." And then OIG goes on to make some recommendations.

There should never be a report like this. The FAA ought to open its doors, the files, the cabinets, everything should be wide open to DCAA or other auditors.

This didn't happen on your watch. Part of the reason is perhaps that we have had so many FAA administrators come and go in a long period of time where nobody was running the shop.

But the questions are two-fold. Are there any other issues ready to drop two, three months from now that we should know about? And secondly, would you put the word out in the FAA that that there should be total, complete cooperation. If anyone from the DCAA indicates there is no cooperation, then maybe there should be a reprimand to that employee. I mean there should be no excuse why all the information isn't given.

Secretary PEÑA. Congressman, of many things that I am troubled about, this one is one that I have been troubled about from the very first day and I am still troubled about it. I am not happy with the progress that we were to have seen in the AAS as to the commitments made to this Committee and to others. That is why I asked the administrator several months ago to bring in some outside people to do a total review of this program.

We have at least two components of that independent analysis ongoing. One is reviewing the finances, the financial picture and the time line that was presented to this Committee some time ago and determining whether or not that is still accurate.

The second is using the Center for Naval Analysis to do an independent analysis of the program to see if it is structured correctly. We should have those reports very soon. It is clear to me that this project has not been managed correctly.

In addition to the issues raised with IBM, let me complicate it even further. Loral is now the new owner of the system. I have met with the president of Loral to talk about my concerns about how they are going to fulfill the expectations that we have of them and of IBM to allow us to ensure that we have adequate oversight of this transition from IBM to Loral.

I have also talked to the Defense Department, because the Defense Department has to do novation agreements of all of the agreements that exist between one party and the other. We want to be very thoughtful about how we use those to ensure that the new company is, in fact, committed to maintain the targets, the

deadlines and the financial caps that we are looking at. So we are spending a lot of time on this.

In answer to your other question, is there another shoe to drop? Until I get the report from Mr. Hinson and the others, I won't be able to answer that question. I have to tell you, though, that I am very disappointed with what we were all told several months ago about where this project was, only to learn-as stated in the letter that Mr. Hinson sent to all of you that we had a very significant overrun several months ago.

We are committed to putting our arms around this project and we are going to do everything necessary, including ensuring that access is provided to whatever appropriate group. There is nothing to hide in this program. There are too many problems with this program to be withholding information from legitimate groups, and so I will work on that and make sure that we get the answers.

Mr. WOLF. Well, I appreciate that. Frankly, I don't think there should be anything withheld. I know that you agree. The one little item that is held back may be the information that gives us the opportunity to fix the problem.

Maybe this is almost your best case for your idea to privatize the FAA and from what I have read about it, I tend to support it. Setting up a corporation, as long as you do it in such a way that protects rights of the Federal employees who transfer, makes a lot of

sense.

I have also been concerned, and we have shared this, that there has been too close of a relationship between individuals who have worked for the government and individuals who have been in the contracting area. Frankly, I think you have to watch that. At times I have seen witnesses testify and the relationships were too close; almost like they went bowling together. I think you have to be careful. Because sometimes when you become too close, then you don't ask the hard and the tough questions. I am not inferring any dishonesty or anything like that, but I just think it is something that ought to be carefully watched.

I wanted to-I have a number of other questions too, but I saw Mr. Slater get up, I think he just left, he was back there. I want to thank him publicly, and thank you for having him participate in this Beltway safety initiative. This is very, very critical.

We need a bypass in this Washington area, but it won't go forward until the governors reach consensus. Meanwhile, Mr. Slater has put a lot of time in and other DOT people have as well. I wanted to thank you for that.

RADAR DETECTORS

Mr. WOLF. I also wanted to thank you for taking the bull by the horns on the truck radar detector issue. I think you did the right thing. I am a little bit concerned how it is going to be enforced.

Now, say you stop somebody who is barrelling down the highway with propane gasoline in the back and he has a radar detector, so what do you do? Have you given that any thought? I mean it is banned, it is not allowed, but we stop them and what happens?

Secretary PEÑA. Well, there have been mixed reports on the sale of these radar detectors.

Secretary PEÑA. They are down in some areas. There has been a little blip recently. But you are right, the next phase that we have to work on is the enforcement phase, but I will talk to Mr. Slater about that.

Mr. WOLF. If you could, and I think-because what I have been hearing is that there is currently a lack of consistency in enforcement. And in fairness to the truckers, some are under intense competition to get from point A to point B. These men and women don't want to speed, but they are saying I have to do it, because he is doing it. If there is no enforcement, after a while I think they will just kind of like the Serbs in Bosnia-they will just kind of keep shelling. So if you could watch that and let me know what you are going to do.

WMATA SAFETY PLATFORMS

Mr. WOLF. A couple of other things on the Metro question. Where are you on the Metro question with regard to the safety edge you have been looking at?

Secretary PEÑA. The little strips?

Mr. WOLF. Yes.

Secretary PEÑA. Well, I met with David Gunn the other day from Metro to talk about that. There had been an effort in the Department for some time to issue the standard for transit agencies.

As you know, we have had a number of deaths of people who have fallen off platforms. The question that Metro has raised is whether or not its particular lighting system complies with safety aspects and preventing accidents, et cetera. The argument they are making is that perhaps this other strip might have some unintended problems or consequences.

We have not made a decision on their request. We are looking at it. We don't know how much flexibility we have, but we will determine whether or not they have a unique circumstance. We haven't made that judgment yet. They presented their case to us. It was a very thoughtful session. And we will make a decision as quickly as we can.

ANTI-LOCK BRAKES

Mr. WOLF. Good. Okay. Anti-lock brakes required on most trucks. Where are we with regard to that?

I know that you are talking about-I saw an ad that with a nice photo of you. If you were running for office, that would have been a nice addition to your campaign. Something about a face that mothers will love.

Secretary PEÑA. My mom should see that one.

Mr. WOLF. Have you seen that?

Secretary PEÑA. I have seen it. It was a bit of a surprise when I saw it. There is a six month delay in publishing that in the Federal Register, but we are generally proceeding.

Mr. WOLF. That has been a big safety issue. Many say it could prevent-save hundreds of deaths.

Secretary PEÑA. I agree, Congressman. Let me just find out specifically. The rule making is in process, but I have been informed that there was a request for additional time for more comments to the rule making. So apparently we are responding to constituents

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