PLANNING FOR RESEARCH GRANTS Mr. JONAS. Mr. Chairman, I heard your suggestion of a million dollars, but I have a counter-proposal to make. I can see a considerable difference between giving you a little staff to start studying these projects—you do not even know what projects you are going to farm out yet. You are getting the cart before the horse. Why don't you get your organization set up with the experts to draw some plans and specifications for the research projects you have in mind and start off with your grants next year? Mr. BARTON. Mr. Jonas, we know the areas that need work. Our thought was as I said before to let the experts that we propose to get through this appropriation make this specific analysis. Mr. JONAS. You do not tell us what those projects are. Mr. BARTON. They are listed. Here is quite a number of them. Mr. JONAS. They are not listed per amount. Mr. THOMAS. It is quite indefinite. Mr. Jonas is right. Mr. JONAS. It is quite indefinite. What it amounts to is a million and a half dollar blank check. I have only one other question: Who did the research and performed the background for the President's message and his transportation policy? It has already been announced. Mr. BARTON. I spent days and nights on it. We had a consultant from Stanford University, Dr. Germane, and we also use the various transportation agencies, Defense, CAB, ICC. Mr. JONAS. That is why I thought: Why can't you continue to use them? Mr. BARTON. We can use them to find out what the problems are, but I do not think we can use them to get the problems solved because each of these groups has their own responsibility under the law and they do not look at overall problems. They look at it from the standpoint of agencies under their jurisdiction. Mr. JONAS. That is all, Mr. Chairman. TOTAL COST OF TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH PROGRAM Mr. Bow. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask, haven't you any idea what the overall program is going to cost? You must have some idea. You are certainly not embarking on something that you haven't some idea what the ultimate cost will be. Mr. BARTON. Mr. Bow, I think any kind of research, if you knew how long it would take and what is involved exactly, you would be a long way on your road. I think it depends on how long it will take Mr. Bow. Is it going to cost $10 million, $25 million, $50 million? In getting into a program of this kind you must have had some idea what the ultimate cost will be of this entire program? Mr. BARTON. We will be glad to try to furnish the information for the record. Mr. THOMAS. Give us your best guess. We will understand it is a guess. Mr. Bow. It seems to me we should know what we are embarking on in a new program. We should have some idea of what the costs will be and how long it will be in operation. Are you going to hire all these experts outside of the Department of Commerce or are some of the people there now going into these spots? Mr. BARTON. I would doubt if any we have there now would go into it, sir. Mr. Bow. All these positions you think you will recruit from the outside? Mr. BARTON. Yes, sir; we will try to. (The information requested follows:) TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH-LENGTH OF PROGRAM AND ESTIMATED COST The greatest need of a comprehensive transportation research program is to study and analyze the transportation system as a whole in order to provide effective transportation at the lowest total cost to the public. This requires a different type of research program than has ever been conducted in the past either by Government or by industry. Each of the research projects previously submitted to the committee will require from 2 to 3 years. These projects represent research to provide needed basic information about the transportation system as a whole or which will provide results needed to formulate policy about specific current pressing transportation problems. These projects, therefore, do not represent the total need for transportation research. There are many additional transportation problems on which research is not presently being conducted. Despite the spectacular advances in electronics, nuclear energy, and other areas of technical research, there has been little effort to apply this new knowledge to the transportation system. There has been no meaningful research done on the effects of Federal Government taxation, promotion, and regulation of one mode in its relationship with other modes. Until proper research and analysis is conducted on the overall transportation process, the Federal Government likely will continue its past practice of viewing its responsibilities to each mode separately and without consideration of the interrelationship of the modes in a total transportation system. This means the kind of research which this program contemplates is comprehensive in nature and will require study in depth, using techniques which up to know have had limited application in transportation research. On the basis of our initial analysis of the problems and of the resources, both Government and private, which can be applied to these research areas, a minimum program of 5 years will be necessary to achieve meaningful results. The level of spending for these research activities should be at a rate of about $2 million per year so that the total cost presently is estimated at about $10 million. The potential saving, both direct and indirect, can easily offset the cost of this transportation research program. It is our belief the total cost of the transportation research program will be more than saved through reduction of direct public subsidy alone. Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Jensen, did you have some further questions? PRIVATE CARRIERS Mr. JENSEN. Speaking of private carriers, just what mode of transportation is included in the category of private carriers? Mr. BARTON. Private carriers, Mr. Jensen, are people hauling their own goods in their own vehicles. It is confined mainly to trucks and barges. Mr. JENSEN. What is wrong with that? Mr. BARTON. There is nothing wrong with it except they do not serve the public generally. They serve only their own interests. Mr. JENSEN. Do I understand that this research is to determine whether or not these private carriers should be eliminated or not? Mr. BARTON. No, sir. Mr. JENSEN. As I understand it, that is about what you propose to do. Under our system of government, the Federal Government is not supposed to put brakes on progress so far as any American citizen is concerned, as to the kind of business he desires to get into. Of course, I can understand how the regular common carriers would like to have these so-called private carriers eliminated. I am a great supporter of the common carriers that are doing a good job for the American people, but we cannot and we dare not say to any American citizen that he cannot carry on his own business if it is honorable, even though he is underselling some other people in his own line. That is the competitive, free enterprise system that has made this Nation great and I do not want to throw any roadblock in its way. Now to set up an organization of this nature, I can see where we are going to create dissension among transporters of every nature. Mr. BARTON. May I comment on that, sir? Mr. JENSEN. Yes, indeed. Mr. BARTON. There is no intention to prohibit anybody from hauling his own goods in his own truck, we will say. I think that is a right that should be safeguarded but I do think that we have an obligation to attempt to make the common carrier more efficient in order that he may get his share of the business, and I think you will find that some people, if they could get more efficient common carriage, would not go into the private carriage business. Mr. JENSEN. Every time the Federal Government interferes with private business I find that private business suffers in every instance, and I have been in this Congress 24 years. I was a businessman 24 years before I came here. I know a little about business and I know a little about government and how it operates, when it operates for the good and when it operates for the bad. I have a lot to learn yet, I must admit, but certainly when the Federal Government steps in and attempts to tell private industry of any nature how they should run their business, after private industry has carried on their business and brought to this Nation the finest economy known to man and then for us as members of this committee to sit here and allow even a million dollars or a dollar for a program such as you are advocating, I just cannot go along with it. You will have to give more information to me as to the purpose of the program that you attempt to initiate than you have his morning before I can go along with the expenditure of the taxpayer's funds in any amount. I am speaking right straight from the shoulder so you know exactly where I stand. You just simply haven't given the Congress enough information as to just what the purpose of the program is you intend to initiate. We have something like a thousand agencies, bureaus, and boards in Government today and to continue to set up additional subagencies of any department over and above the ones we have now and to pile on more people in my book is not justified by any stretch of the imagination. Now you know exactly how I feel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. NEED FOR TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH Mr. THOMAS. Gentlemen, certainly, Mr. Secretary, we are delighted to have you and your staff here with us today. We will go into this matter very carefully in the light of your very excellent statements. You have presented your point of view well. I think you have just made one error. There is nothing personal in this. I think you should have done this work 15 or 20 years ago. It is badly needed. You had better bring in the National Academy of Science. I see they are in here. The bigger part they play in it the better off you will be. I am reminded of what our very able and distinguished friend Dr. Bronk, who is President of the National Academy of Science, remarked to another group in this room some few months ago. He said had the railroads during the last 25 or 30 years spent a little money on research they would not be in the financial straits they are in now. ATTITUDE OF TRANSPORTATION INDUSTRY TOWARD RESEARCH In the revision of your remarks, please state at this point in the record what is the attitude of the different segments of the private transportation industry. The record was brought out very ably by Mr. Jensen, there are no Government carriers in any of the big fields of transportation. It is all private carriers. The Government does not own any stock in any business outside of MATS and two or three organizations like that. Bring out what their attitude is. Do you recall right now whether they are for this program and if so, which ones are for it? Are there any against it? Bear in mind, this is nothing but research and study. It is an idea program looking toward improvement of the entire transportation system of this country in the future years. Do you recall that any of the private carriers are against this program? Mr. BARTON. No, sir. Mr. THOMAS. Think about it, revise and extend your remarks, and see if there are any against it. If so, we would like to have statements from them. (The information supplied follows:) Contact We know of no private carrier organizations against this program. was made with Mr. Vincent L. O'Donnell, managing director, Private Carrier Conference, Inc., who stated that members of his organization were primarily shippers, and did not consider themselves as engaged in the business of transportation, even though they hauled their own freight in their own trucks; and that the members of the Private Carrier Conference were interested in increased efficiency leading to lower transportation costs in both private and common carriage. After stating this position, Mr. O'Donnell said that he would have no objection to the research project in question. Mr. THOMAS. Gentlemen, we thank you very much. |