Cattle are dying right and left. Water supplies for cattle and for human consumption have dried up. Water is being shipped in or trains to towns. The whole area is devastated. It requires immediate action; and, therefore, without waiting for this appropriation, but out of the appropriations that have already been made available to us and which under the law could be used for these purposes, we have began to administer general and minimum relief in the drought areas. This month's appropriation of $12,000,000 has been made for the drought areas to meet immediately human needs and the minimum needs required to feed family stock, including work horses and cows and chickens.

We took a gamble on forage crops at a time when it looked very doubtful whether forage crops could be planted. We appropriated nearly $5,000,000 for forage crops. The rains in the last few days mean that these crops in all probability will be worth five times that sum of money.

In the State of Iowa, for instance, the whole sum appropriated for drought relief was used for forage. It looks now as though the light rains that they have had in that particular area are going to result in bringing those forage crops to fruition.

It seems to me that we have a problem that must be independently met on several fronts. I am entirely in sympathy with the fact that this should be treated as an emergency. I question whether there is adequate knowledge to treat it on a long-time basis and I assume it would be the intent of Congress that these funds should be used to meet an emergency situation based on the realistic needs of these communities. And so this program has been divided up into two or three parts.

I think you might segregate it something like this: $175,000,000 is to be used for direct relief for families. That relief must of necessity include income to feed these families' stock, small herds, three or four cows, a team of work horses, and so forth. It seems to me that that amount is urgently needed, that that is over and above any amounts that we had planned to expend in this drought area, had there been no drought.

It seems to me the argument as to why $75,000,000 for cattle in addition to what would have been spent under the Jones-Connally Act should more appropriately be presented to the committee by Mr. Davis of the triple A's. It is my personal opinion it is needed, and that it would be a desirable thing to do.

The same thing might be said about the $100,000,000 needed for loans. It is my personal opinion that if that fund is not made available, cattle will be dumped on the market and the market for cattle will drop. It is not to the interest of the country, to the economy these States, to permit those cattle to be sold now.

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Thus we are thinking of an emergency program, which tends to leave these farm families where they are and with their stock as reasonably intact as possible.

Senator BYRNES. May I ask this, before we get away. $175,000,000 is to take care of these 300,000 families?

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Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; 300,000 families for the $125,000,000; in speaking of them, I divide the problem, in terms of human needs, between the farm families in the drought area and the cities.

Senator BYRNES. I am trying to arrive at what you estimated the amount per family to be necessary.

Mr. HOPKINS. For the farm families, including food for the people and feed to take care of the family stock, the minimum need is approximately $40 a month for a period of months.

Senator BYRNES. How many months?

Mr. HOPKINS. We do not know. It depends upon what happens to the drought. In certain parts of the Dakotas, it is my opinion that we are going to have to take care of these families until next spring-that is until their spring wheat is grown. They are not going to have any spring wheat this year.

Senator NYE. That will be for a period of nearly 18 months.

Mr. HOPKINS. Their wheat has been blown out. It is too late to plant it now. I am projecting this thing-

Senator BYRNES. And, they have no means of making any income in any way?

Mr. HOPKINS. None whatever.

Senator BYRNES. And your thought is that you will keep them upon their places, at their homes, and pay them so much per month? Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; on a work program. We would give them their benefits by means of work, including types of public activity that would be of benefit to the agricultural States, by developing the water program and other necessary things: All of that will be done only on the advice of competent engineers. We now have in these States, and all of the States, competent engineers so that we do not spend that money for useless purposes. We want to be sure, too, that we do not spend it on an ambitious program which has nothing to do with our problem. I think that Senator Tydings is right about that. Insofar as any funds may be available to us, we want to use them in such a way as to get the maximum water production and conservation. Senator TYDINGS. You want to expend this money for emergency relief in such a manner that no part of it will be a capital expenditure. Mr. HOPKINS. That is right. There will be incidental capital expenditures, but it will be for the purpose of drought relief.

Senator TYDINGS. Well, it is all to be a part of the emergency? Mr. HOPKINS. Any appropriations that are made to our Department are for the purpose of meeting emergencies.

Senator BYRNES. Well, I thought you were stating that they had rains throughout the Dakotas recently.

Mr. HOPKINS. They have had.

Senator BYRNES. Then, what you are spending there, you are not spending for that purpose.

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. But, for future insurance against that condition?" Mr. HOPKINS. No, for this drought right now. There are many families that have no means of income now.

Senator NYE. And will not have for 18 months.

Mr. HOPKINS. They will have no income, they have no cash crops.. Senator BYRNES. You said that you were projecting this into next spring, but the Senator across the table (Senator Nye) said that it would be for 18 months.

Mr. HOPKINS. There are people that are going to have to be taken care of until next August. That is 14 months.