care of the files. The increase in our files per year has been about 250,000 cases and 300,000 miscellaneous letters and papers pertaining to them. Our files are growing pretty rapidly, and unlike a good many other files, they are really never dead. We are every day examining files that are many years old, looking up somebody's land

title.

Mr. STAFFORD. Is it the purpose to install a new filing system?

Mr. TALLMAN. No, sir; this is to take care of the regular increase. By the way, I might say that the filing cases we will buy will be available for use in the new building when we move down there.

Mr. STAFFORD. What are you doing with your files, unless there is some provision made for them?

Mr. TALLMAN. We get as much as we can from the department, and we use a great many transfer cases and cases that are not adapted to the work.

Mr. STAFFORD. Has any provision been made for the installation of modern filing cases in the new building?

Mr. TALLMAN. That is being made, I understand, but I am not familiar with the details of it.

SURVEYOR GENERAL.

Mr. BYRNS. You are asking for increases in the offices of the surveyors general in Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, a slight decrease in Utah, an increase in the office of the surveyor general in Washington, a decrease in the office of the surveyor general in Wyoming, and the same appropriation for the offices in California, Colorado, Montana, Oregon, and South Dakota. Now, do you desire to take these items up separately?

Mr. TALLMAN. I think, perhaps, I can group them, unless you want to go into detail a good deal about them.

Mr. BYRNS. I thought probably we would save time by letting you take them up together.

Mr. TALLMAN. We have various regular reports from the surveyors general. We also have an inspector who goes to all of these offices of the surveyors general and makes further reports. We have a good deal of data as to the amount of work being done in each of those offices, and from all of the data available from every office, or with respect to every office, we have considered every factor that we could think of, taking up each one of these offices in detail, and we have arrived at this conclusion as to what is to the best interest of those offices. I am very frank to admit that there is a considerable lack of uniformity in the shape of the relation between the cost and output in the surveyors general offices. I have been during the last three years trying to ascertain where the trouble is and we have accomplished quite a good deal in that respect. Speaking generally, we are doing more field surveying right along than we have done before. That turns more work into the offices of the surveyors general in many of the States and, in turn, more work into our office here in Washington. This estimate contemplates a few increases in salaries, but comparatively few, and there are no large increases. For the most part it is intended to take care of the extra demands on those offices which are to be recommended to be increased to meet what appears to be the necessities of their work.

OFFICE OF SURVEYOR GENERAL IN ALASKA.

Mr. BYRNS. For instance, in Alaska in the year 1916 there was expended $8,998, and you are asking for $15,000 now. I notice that in 1916 you had no position known as chief clerk, but you now propose to create one at $2,400, and you drop the position of clerk at $2,000. That is an increase of $400.

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir. With respect to Alaska, during the curent year and next year we will have practically double the amount of money assigned to the territory for the field work of surveying, their apportionment being now $50,000, and it will probably be that amount next year, if not more. That means that there is much more work coming into the office of the surveyor general. As to the increase of salary there does not seem to be much to say; $2,400 is a comparatively small salary for the head man in the office of the surveyor general in Alaska, in Juneau.

Mr. BYRNS. You also propose to provide a chief draftsman at $2,000 instead of $1,800, and two draftsmen at $1,800, over and above the present force.

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir. As we have our pay roll at present in Alaska, with the amount of money available, we will have to transfer two of the draftsmen to other offices in the near future. But we have no more help there now than is necessary to take care of the work, and we will handle the matter in that way during the balance of this year.

Mr. STAFFORD. I do not understand that.

Mr. TALLMAN. We will have to transfer those draftsmen to some vacancy in some other office or furlough them.

Mr. BYRNS. With regard to the increase in the salary of this chief clerk, I wondered how you would do it in view of this provision in the statute which prevents an increase in the compensation of employees above that paid for performing the same identical service. That provision reads as follows:

That no part of any money contained herein or hereafter appropriated in lump sum shall be available for the payment of personal services at a rate of compensation in excess of that paid for the same or similar services during the preceding fiscal year; nor shall any person employed at a specific salary be hereafter transferred and hereafter paid from a lump-sum appropriation a rate of compensation greater than such specific salary, and the heads of departments shall cause this provision to be enforced: Provided, That this section shall not apply to mechanics, artisans, their helpers and assistants, laborers, or any other employees whose duties are of similar character and required in carrying on the various manufacturing or construction operations of the Government.

That law was passed in March, 1913, and I was wondering how you could get around that statute in increasing the salary of this chief clerk.

Mr. TALLMAN. I am very frank to say that I did not consider it in this connection.

Mr. BYRNS. I do not see how you could do it, regardless of whether or not it is deserved.

Mr. TALLMAN. If the office is enlarged and it is a larger institution, and if as the result of his experience he is doing a better class of work, it is a question of whether or not he is rendering the same identical service.

Mr. BYRNS. It is the same character of service.

Mr. TALLMAN. That is true. I understand that the comptroller has interpreted that to mean that you can not pay above the highest salary that was paid during the previous year for a similar class of work. You could not promote anybody on a lump-sum roll at all, if a strict interpretation was given to the statute.

INCREASE IN CONTINGENT EXPENSES.

Mr. BYRNS. I notice that in most of these offices you are asking for an increase in the contingent expenses.

Mr. TALLMAN. No, sir; the increase is very slight except in Alaska. The reason for that increase in Alaska is this: We are not put to any more contingent expense there than we were before, but an inspection of that office last year disclosed that they were paying on their rent account a larger proportion out of their deposits for mineral work than they should do, and that a larger proportion of it should be paid by direct appropriation. There is a statute that allows us to use money out of deposits for work on the mineral surveys, in a proportionate amount, for the payment of rent of quarters. Now, I found out of the total rent, amounting to $1,800, they were paying $1,100 from the deposits and $700 from the appropriation, but, considered in the light of the comparative amounts of work done, it ought to be just the reverse. That amount has been really paid heretofore rather improperly out of the deposits for mineral work. Our rent for quarters is the same, and that change is due entirely to this rent proposition.

Mr. BYRNS. I wish to correct the statement I made awhile ago to the effect that there were increases in the contingent fund in most of the offices of the surveyors general. The only other increase in contingent expenses appears to be in Nevada, which you will find on page 271.

Mr. TALLMAN. That is estimated so as to have money enough in the fund to buy some machines that are needed, such as computing apparatus, that will cost $300 or $400, and if we did not have a little more than $400 in the contingent fund when we went to buy one of those machines, we would not have money left for the small expenses. That is the reason for that increase.

Mr. BYRNS. Do you care to take these offices up in their order and discuss each one of them, or have you made such statement as you desire to make with reference to all of them?

Mr. TALLMAN. I do not know that I can add anything.

Mr. STAFFORD. Are these clerks connected with the offices of the surveyors general drawn from the civil service lists?

Mr. TALLMAN. All of them are.

SURVEYING RAILROAD LANDS.

Mr. BYRNS. On page 278 of the bill you seek to eliminate the provision making a certain portion of the fund therein referred to available for clerks in the General Land Office.

Mr. TALLMAN. The provision as passed last year was that the use of the fund created by the act of July 2, 1864, and the act of March 2, 1895, was made available to the extent of $25,000 in the General

Land Office, or in the offices of the surveyors general. Now, as I have explained heretofore, the fund of July 2, 1864, will be exhausted at the end of this fiscal year.

The act of March 2, 1895, provides a continuing appropriation for the purpose of paying the Government's portion of railroad surveys; that is to say, land within railroad land-grant limits. The railroad's portion of that money is deposited under the act passed June 25, 1910. Ordinarily each pays half. We call on the railroads for a deposit, and under this act of March 2, 1895, the Government's portion of the expense is provided. The way this read before, you will notice it says "the use of the fund created by " the two acts, which the comptroller interpreted to mean that we could not expend over $25,000 out of both of them, and literally that is probably what it says. As a result, if we spend $20,000 in the General Land Office under the act of March 2, 1864, that would leave only $5,000 to be spent in the offices of the surveyors general under the other act, and that is what happens. My memory is that the comptroller let us go ahead for a little time. It is now cut off.

There should be no limitation on the amount of money we spend under the act of March 2, 1895, because that is automatically limited by the amount of money the railroads deposit for surveys. We need to use an equal amount of railroad money and Government money for making the surveys in the field and doing the office work in the offices of the surveyors general. In view of the 1864 appropriation being exhausted, we have recommended that this be changed to read so that the use of the appropriation created by the act of March 2, 1895, will be available for office work in the surveyor's general offices, and in this other provision we have made provision for taking care of the clerks in the General Land Office.

Mr. STAFFORD. I do not quite understand what work the surveyors general offices perform in connection with the railroad lands.

Mr. TALLMAN. These are lands, unsurveyed lands, within railroad land-grant limits. The railroad has to pay for the survey of its land, as a rule every odd section, and consequently it has to pay half the expense of the survey of the total area. Under the act of June 26, 1910, the Secretary of the Interior may call on the railroads for the deposit of their part of the expense.

Mr. STAFFORD. That is an estimated amount?

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir. Under the act of March 2, 1895, a continuing appropriation was also provided by Congress for the survey of railroad land grants. The only difference between that act and the act of 1910 is that the latter is compulsory; the railroads must pay the money or suffer forfeiture of their grant. The comptroller, however, has allowed us to use the money deposited under the compulsory act in conjunction with the continuing appropriation of March 2, 1895. So we are working those two acts together to survey the railroad lands. The work is done in the field at the expense of those funds. The field notes are transmitted to the surveyors general offices and the principal work done in those offices is the preparation of instructions for those surveys, the rechecking of the field notes when they come in, and the making of the plats of the surveys. That is the office work that is done with this money. As you understand, the money appropriated here does not cover all the work that we have to do in the offices of the surveyors general. For instance,

these clerks that are here listed to be provided for by these appropriations do not include the clerks necessarily that do the work on this railroad survey, neither do they include the clerks that do the mineral work, because they are paid from these other funds. At the present time our pay roll in the offices of the surveyors general in excess of this pay roll as shown here in this estimate is running in the neighborhood of $65,000 a year.

Mr. STAFFORD. Are these clerks also employed under this railroad land-grant survey and the mineral survey in the civil service?

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir; they are all in the civil service. We use the same clerks, to a large extent, on both rolls; we transfer them from one roll to the other, and use many of the same clerks by transfer from one fund to the other.

I should like very much to have this appropriation passed in the form indicated because it is the only practical way to work out the present situation.

Mr. BYRNS. Will you need more than $25,000 for these clerks?
Mr. TALLMAN. I do not think so.

Mr. BYRNS. What you want is to remove the limitation?

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir; just apply it to the one act, simply for the surveyor's general offices and not for the General Land Office, because that is eliminated.

Mr. BYRNS. On the next page you submit an alternative proposition which was submitted last year, at which time you made a very clear statement in favor of it?

Mr. TALLMAN. Yes, sir. There is little I could add to the statement I made last year. I think that is very much to the advantage of the whole work. Congress appropriates for the 99 local land offices a lump sum for all the clerk hire, and we handle that work with more facility than the work in the surveyor's general offices with three appropriations for each one. The more we can consolidate that the better we can handle it, and I think we can do it more reasonably.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1916.

INDIAN OFFICE.

STATEMENT OF MR. EDGAR B. MERITT, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS.

CLERKS ON HEIRSHIP CASES.

Mr. BYRNS. You have only one change, as I recall it, and that is a reduction?

Mr. MERITT. Yes, sir; we are asking for a reduction.

Mr. BYRNS. In the salary of the Forester?

Mr. MERITT. Yes; a reduction of $500.

Mr. BYRNS. I was wondering whether you are prepared to suggest any other reductions either in force or salaries?

Mr. MERITT. No, sir; we were very modest this year in making up our estimates, and I thought we would have no trouble in getting them through, inasmuch as that was the only change that we are asking for.