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That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BRYANT. I just have a couple of final questions.

You indicated that the proposal to have the Department of Defense participate with you was unsolicited. How did you all know that the Department of Defense funds were available?

Dr. SAENGER. I am sure again, I can't give you a firm answer, but I am sure that this developed from some conversations which I had with members of the Department of Defense saying this these were my interests. And they said, well, you know, we are sort of interested in the same things you are interested in. And then I made my unsolicited proposal.

Mr. BRYANT. Were you searching for funding, calling a whole lot of agencies at once? How did you,

Dr. SAENGER. In those days I think we were all searching for funding. This was a general problem, and I think it is true today. People are looking for funding.

Mr. BRYANT. Also, if the Department of Defense was really only buying results from you—and correct me if I am wrong but that is kind of what I read what you are saying as being—they weren't paying for any of this activity. They were paying for the lab work and for the studies and for the results of it. Is that correct?

Dr. SAENGER. Well, that is what I don't understand your question, Congressman.

Mr. BRYANT. The actual administering of the treatment to these patients that has been the subject of controversy here today was paid for by the hospital.

Dr. SAENGER. By the hospital, right.

Mr. BRYANT. And as I understood what you said I understood what you said to be that the Department of Defense was paying for results, in effect.

Dr. SAENGER. Well, we weren't guaranteeing them results. We were trying to elicit changes, either biochemical or chromosomes, blood counts, et cetera, et cetera, that we thought we could predict knowing what the effects of radiation might be. And, as you can see, we tried a number of different things.

We did not guarantee them—or, for instance, let's say we had a contract to build an airplane. We would guarantee at some period the plane would be available. But this was a research in which the outcome was not a guaranteed

Mr. BRYANT. I didn't mean to imply results-pay you to accomplish a stated goal. I mean to pay for the results of the information, the findings from this work. That is what they were paying for, is that correct?

Dr. SAENGER. Yes, that is what we put in our reports.

Mr. BRYANT. I am curious why they made their payments over a 10-year period-on an annual basis over a 10-year period. I just wondered if that is consistent with that explanation.

Dr. SAENGER. There were contracts. We submitted new proposals as our work developed. We submitted new proposals. We got-we stopped doing certain tests. We instituted new tests. We instituted this whole program of psychological and psychiatric testing and so

And the project gradually changed. We finally got into some aspects of the bone marrow preservation and so on.

on.

I mean, this was a changing project. It wasn't a static proposal. I don't know if I am answering your question.

Mr. BRYANT. Dr. Saenger, thank you very much for appearing today and testifying on this matter.

We would like to express our thanks once again to Judge Weber and his staff for making the courtroom available to us and all of those who have been helpful in making this hearing a success.

With that, the subcommittee hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned.)

APPENDIX

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

The Testimony of Gloria Nelson

UGLIA TXOKBON
PATIBWT WO - 67

on October 21, 1966, after being disaharged for General Hospital, Ms Jackson was a very weak 111 woman. She was unable to take care of herselt

properly, and depended on the family for all her basic needs. She experienced bleeding from her rectum, loss of appetite, nausea, vomit.ing, weight loss, and was in constant pain. Her condition never improved. Within a few weeks she was readmitted to General Hospital. The lamily was informed sha should be transferred to Drake Hospital. Ms Jackson indicated she was afraid and wanted to return home. She was transported hone, where she was loved and cared for by us until she died on March 25, 1967. The family of Amelia Jackson would like for this committee to know, that for the entire 163 days after receiving the Irradiation, her condition continued to deteriorate. We feel that the 100 rade of partial-body irradiation administered to her was cruel and didn't help her condition in any way. It's our belief that she may have lived longer if this experiment had not taken place. A doctor is someone you trust. His job is to do everything in his power to alleviate your pain and suffering. However, this was not the case. she was always crying, moaning, groaning, and in excruciating pain. Me Jackson WAS used to further Dr. Saeger'.. protessional goallom. It was purely an ambitious and callous aat, Nelther Me Jackson nor the family were informed or consented to her bolng used in an experiment conducted by Dr. Saeger, and funded by the Department of Defens. There has clearly been a cover up by means of the Government, General Hospital, Dr. Saeger and city of cincinnat... We cannot believe that they consented to such atrocities to be financed by the government; utilizing Ms Jackson's and the fam:lly's tax paying dollars.

The Testimony of Joe Larkins

April 11, 1994

1

My name is Joe P. Larkins. I am now 52 years old. My Father, Willard L. Larkins, passed away in 1971. I was 30 years old at the time. My family consisted of myself, an older sister and my parents. When my Father passed away, he and my Mother were in the process of raising a grandchild (my sister's son). Neither of my patents were well-educated, but my Father was hard-working and honest. We always had clean and decent clothes to go to school in and we always had ample food on the table. It doesn't take a well-educated person to be hard-working or honest. If Cincinnati General Hospital and the Doctor's therein had been honest, there is of course, the possibility that my Father could have lived for several more years.

Instead,

went from a fairly able-bodied middle-aged Father and Husband to a premature death caused by an "experiment". My Father did not know that

was being used as a guinea pili my Mother did not know; as his children, we were not informed of the procedures to be used nor of the risks involved.

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he

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I feel
though Dr. Saenger and

the other "Doctors" involved, if you will, knew that the high levels of radiation which they administered to these patients had the very real probability of being fatal. Oh, how right that is! My Father was very much a family man, yet these people killed him as surely as if they had put a gun to his head and pulled the proverbial trigger. These "Doctors“ left my Mother, with no job skills, to raise a grandchild as best as she could. My Mother lived until 1983, but she was a broken woman after my Father's premature and unexpected death.

I know that my Father knew that something was very wrong
with the treatments being given to him at Cincinnati
General. He even asked me "Son, what are they doing to me? ..
They're trying to kill me!" That's how bad the pain, he
endured after the treatment was. He suffered so needlessly.
What really gets me about this situation is the fact that
the Pentagon contracted with these Doctors and this hospital
to test the effects of radiation on the human body. Everyone
realizes that Cincinnati General Hospital, now the
University

of

Cincinnati Hospital, treated many low-education, low-income patients. I guess they felt that in some way, the fact that these patients were not rich, upper-class citizens, gave them the right to experiment with

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their bodies without informed consent. NOT SO! I feel sure these physician/researchers were well-paid for their part and it would be very interesting to know the types and dollar amounts of the grants given to Cincinnati General by the Federal government. I feel sure that all parties, with the exception of the poor, unsuspecting patients and their families,

well-compensated. But since when, in our society, does one man or even a group of them, have the right to play God? A very good example of this is our 20th century "assisted suicide Doctor". This man is contacted by terminally-ill patients who wish to end their own lives with dignity and choose, by their own voilition, not to suffer needlessly for years. These people make the decision to die in peace, yet our great judicial system, along with the medical community, brought this compassionate physician up on charges. The differences in these deaths and the death of my Father are that my Father did not choose to die - someone else made that decision for him, without consulting informing him and they were amply compensated for it. I feel that the price they should be required to рау to the families of the people they killed, should be exceedingly high. I also feel that the Federal government should be named

co-conspirator in this case, because that's exactly what it

a conspiracy. No person, and I emphsize 'NO', person would willingly consent to a treatment with any degree of fatality involved. People, both you and I, simply value life too much. I think that is the big thing here - the patients were not informed. I know that behavior of this sort would not be tolerated by the medical community today. But then again, this entire mess was surrounded by a thick veil of secrecy on both the doctors' part and on the part of Cincinnati General Hospital. It is still being closely guarded and kept under yet another veil of secrecy to this very day by the University of Cincinnati, that they have yet to provide the medical records of the patients involved in this experiment/ I beseige you to order the University of Cincinnati to release the patient records, in their entirety, to the next of kin immediately. They hedging to save their own skin. I was promised my Father's complete medical file over a month ago; as of this writing, I have nothing.

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I only hope that you, the Congressional Committee, see fit, as members of the human race, to break this matter wide open here and now and award just compensation to the families of, the victims. 'I feel that the Physicians involved and also the

federal government (the Pentagon) should pay and also I beg you to strip any and all of the Doctors involved of all their medical credentials that they hold. If justice prevails in this matter, and I have faith that it will, a strong message will be sent to our government officials and the private physicians (to whom people entrust their lives and the lives of their loved ones) that behavior of this

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