Dr. MUMFORD. I think, Mr. Gooch, he would like to know whether there are others which we will contemplate requesting mechanization on. I assume that there are not.

Mr. GOOCH. No; this would take care of the conversion of such elevators.

EQUIPPING BOOKSTACKS

Mr. NORRELL. The other item is "Equipping bookstacks and decks.” The budget request this year is $105,000 for this purpose, the same as last year.

We have provided funds for this in earlier years. What is the ultimate extent of this appropriation?

Mr. Goocн. Mr. Chairman, it is our estimate that with the 1961 appropriation, as requested, of $85,000, we would need probably 4 years beyond that in order to complete the construction of the annex. We have occupied the annex since 1938, but at the time the staff moved in only 72 stack levels of the 12-stack levels provided in that building had been equipped with bookshelving.

Beginning with the appropriation in 1957 to the Architect, we were able to start the installation of bookshelving into these unequipped bookstack levels and we have coming up the procurement of shelving with the 1959 and 1960 appropriations. Thereafter, we would require, as closely as we can estimate now, about 5 more years to complete this program and get the maximum potential which the annex offers for the custody of the book collections.

Mr. NORRELL. Now, Mr. Stewart, you have another item I believe?

LANGUAGE CHANGE

Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir. I have a request here for the committee to add the following language to the text shown in the committee print.

Mr. NORRELL. Will you submit that to us?

Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir. It is to the effect that not to exceed $107,600 of the amount made available under this head for the fiscal year 1960, is hereby continued available until June 30, 1961. I will not be able to have it all under contract by the end of this fiscal year. It has been difficult to get certain types of workmen and certain types of material and get certain things under contract with moneys already appropriated.

Mr. Bow. The new language would be subject to a point of order, would it not? Do you not think the language would be subject to a point of order?

Mr. STEWART. It has never been raised in my experience.

Mr. Bow. Probably not in your experience, but I have heard of it being raised in other instances. I think it is subject to a point of order. I see no great objection to it but it is probably subject to a point of order.

FLOOR TILE

Let us go back to some of this installation of floor title which was testified to. I understood you to say you were going to put some floor tile in areas where you never had it before.

Mr. GooсH. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. What areas are those?

Mr. GOOCH. The major portion of the main reading room which has never had any. Back in the 1930's the corridors between the rows of desks the major corridors radiating from the central desk in the middle of the room-were floor tiled and also the corridors surrounding the central desk. However, the major areas of the floor-that is, the areas through which the readers have to move to get to their seats and desks, is still the original terrazzo floor and has never had any covering on it. It is cracked, and the impact of hard heels on the floor creates noise. This would do much to make the room a quieter

area.

Mr. Bow. Are there not other types of floor covering which would be even quieter and not as expensive as putting in tile?

Mr. GoоCH. The tile we have reference to is this composition tile such as we have been using in many of the other areas.

Mr. Bow. How do you figure the cost of that?

Mr. GOOCH. It is about 50 cents a square foot.

Mr. HENLOCK. At page 180 of the justification it gives a breakdown of the estimate, Mr. Bow, and how it is apportioned.

Mr. Bow. But it does not give us the cost per square foot.

Dr. MUMFORD. No, that is not broken down.

Mr. Bow. So we should have some idea as to what it would be.

Dr. MUMFORD. I believe it compares favorably with linoleum, does it not, and is longer lasting insofar as installation where there is heavy traffic concerned.

Mr. STEWART. The price, Mr. Bow, will run somewhere between 50 and 60 cents a square foot. It is not a real expensive tile.

Mr. Bow. These are the breakdowns as to where you would use it? Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. I see you indicate on page 180 of the justifications that there is a possibility of using composition or other types of flooring and that you are not requesting just floor tile; is that correct?

Mr. GOOCH. This goes by the name of floor tile in the work that we have been doing over there.

Mr. Bow. But on page 180 of the justifications you will note that for 1961 the allotment is for $31,400 which is being requested to install floor tile, and then you have a parenthesis with other types of covering; is that correct?

Mr. STEWART. The cork composition, asphalt, or vinyl tile all comes under the general classification of floor tile.

ELEVATOR IMPROVEMENTS

Mr. Bow. How much have you expended in the last 5 years on elevator improvement at the Library of Congress?

Mr. HENLOCK. We do not have that figure, Mr. Bow, but we can put it in the record.

Mr. Bow. Can you give us an approximate figure? We have been appropriating a good bit of money for elevators over there. It seems to me that each year we have had a pretty substantial item on elevators.

Mr. HENLOCK. You gave us $81,600 for the present fiscal year and we have nothing for fiscal year 1959, and as far as I remember nothing for fiscal year 1958, but we did have around $50,000 or $60,000 for fiscal year 1957 as I recall for those east elevators.

Mr. Bow. How many have we modernized over there, say, in the last 10 years?

Dr. MUMFORD.

Two in the annex.

Two and we have an appropriation for two more.

Mr. Bow. In other words, we have just put in two new ones in the last 10 years?

Dr. MUMFORD. That is under contract negotiation now, is it not, Mr. Gooch?

Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. They are not up yet?

Dr. MUMFORD. The second two are not. There are two in operation. Mr. Goocн. The two east elevators in the annex have been made automatic. That was completed last year.

Mr. Bow. They are automatic now?

Mr. GOOCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. Do you show a reduction in employees and operators? Mr. GOOCH. No, we do not, sir.

Mr. Bow. So putting in the automatics did not reduce the number of employees?

Mr. GoоCH. It did not reduce the number; no, sir.

Mr. Bow. Can we be assured, as your justifications have indicated here, that if this job is done that you are going to get some people off the payroll?

Dr. MUMFORD. I think it would be reasonable to assume, Mr. Bow, that as more of these elevators are mechanized, that we could reduce the number of operators.

Mr. Bow. Dr. Mumford, it is always reasonable to assume.

Dr. MUMFORD. Since we have had only two in operation, it has not been apparently possible to reduce them.

Mr. Bow. We hear that time and time again-it is reasonable to

assume

Dr. MUMFORD. I realize that.

Mr. Bow. That is, that it is reasonable to assume that the number of employees is going to be reduced, but those "reasonable" assumptions just do not come true. I do not know why, but they do not. Your justification states that it is expected savings will be realized due to a reduction in the number of elevator operator positions required. So we will have to count on that sometime in the future?

Dr. MUMFORD. Perhaps we could pin it down a little more closely, either Mr. Gooch or Mr. Foley, as to just what you do contemplate can be done if we should have the six mechanized elevators.

Mr. FOLEY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

There would be 8 actually or, perhaps, 10 or 11 positions, or about $30,000 a year.

Mr. Bow. I would like to get that on the record. If I am fortunate in November of this year, I would like to talk to you about that a couple of years from now.

Dr. MUMFORD. If you would not hold us to a commitment, I would certainly say we would seek to do that.

Mr. GOOCH. I think it might be pointed out here, however, that for major portions of many workdays some of the elevators have not been operated because we have been somewhat short of staff for the total needs.

Dr. MUMFORD. I was going to point out, Mr. Bow, one of the reasons why you would not necessarily reduce personnel when we effect improvements and that is because we are sometimes understaffed to begin with and do not have adequate service before the improvement. Mr. Bow. What is the requirement actually of the traffic that you have over there now? How many people do you handle who would use this service if it were put in?

Mr. GooсH. The particular service, sir, requested for 1961?
Mr. Bow. Yes.

Mr. Gooch. I do not have any statistics on that.

Mr. Bow. Has a check ever been made to find out whether it is necessary to have a capacity of 4,800 per day?

Mr. GOOCH. I think that Mr. Somner of the Architect's staff has made surveys in all cases before recommending these conversions.

Mr. Bow. Could we have that survey for this record so we can see what the survey shows the requirements to be as to the number of passengers per day that you would handle in this operation?

Mr. STEWART. Mr. Bow, there has been a count made at different times and that is how we arrived at our figure. At one time there was a count made which reflected 32 million people, all of them on the Hill, using these services. I do not have those figures available, but I will give you the latest surveys we have over there as well as anything we can project for the future.

Mr. Bow. Can you give it to us for these particular elevators that you would want to replace, because part of the justification is that you would be able to handle 4,800 under the proposed modernization program. My question is this: Is it necessary to have that capacity when you are handling 2,680 now?

Mr. STEWART. Of course, I would not be able to tell you what the new elevators would handle, but I can tell you what they are required to handle now.

Mr. Bow. You can?

Mr. STEWART. I will make a check and put it in the record.

Dr. MUMFORD. I can only testify as to personal observation-that there are people standing on floors waiting for elevators and I know there is considerable loss of time and efficiency of the people going from one floor to another in pursuit of their work.

Mr. STEWART. I might point out, Mr. Bow, if I may, that probably the determining factor in this decision to replace these elevators was

the age of them. They are nearly 30 years old. The manufacturer has been out of business for 17 years and it takes a gold mine out of your maintenance funds to die parts for them.

Mr. Bow. Your justifications list the age of the elevators at 22 years.

Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir; that is the correct age.

Mr. Bow. So, your manufacturer went out of business 5 years after they were put in?

Mr. STEWART. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. I would hate to have that happen if we put in $250,000worth of equipment and have the manufacturer go out of business. Mr. HENLOCK. They were put in under competitive bids, as we are required to do by law, at the time the annex was built.

Mr. Bow. Would not these be installed under similar bids?
Mr. HENLOCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEWART. The market has sort of leveled off, however.

(The information of the elevators previously requested follows:)

1. The modernization of elevators 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the Library Annex, from manual to automatic (without attendant) control will release 8 elevator operators at an annual saving of $24,000. The Librarian of Congress advises that he is prepared to make this reduction in his 1962 estimates if the funds are allowed for modernizing these four elevators for 1961 and the work is carried to completion in that year.

2. The modernization will also reduce the waiting time of passengers from 85 seconds to 50 seconds, or a saving of 35 seconds per passenger. Since these four elevators transport approximately 8,500 passengers per day, the reduction in waiting time represents a saving of approximately 25,500 hours per year of passenger-time.

3. The modernization would also eliminate the obsolete door-operating mechanisms and controllers. These parts were manufactured by the A.B. See Ele-vator Co. in 1938. Five years later this company was liquidated and replacement parts can be obtained only at premium prices and long delay.

Mr. Bow. This is a big item, $250,000, in this budget and I hope we can get those figures, Mr. Stewart, and anything else that you can put in to justify an expenditure of this kind. Mr. Chairman, $250,000is a lot of money and I do not see the justification for it as yet.

Mr. NORRELL. I agree with you.

Mr. Bow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.