Mr. NORRELL. I notice some of these countries are Iron Curtain countries.

Mr. MCCARTHY. Poland would be one.

Mr. NORRELL. And Yugoslavia is also in the proposal. Am I correct on that?

Mr. MCCARTHY. I think so.

Mr. NORRELL. How would you get the information in those countries?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We have trade relations with both of these countries. The object of this program would be to get from Poland Polish books and journals and other publications to be sent to this country. So I believe there would be no problem about a purchasing mission or purchasing establishment in Cracow, or wherever the place might be, acquiring books to send to this country. It is the very thing the Russians are doing. They have in New York City the Four Continents Book Corp. The main object of the Four Continents is to buy American books and publications for Russia.

Mr. NORRELL. What good would it do to have countries like Poland and Yugoslavia, as far as our country is concerned, in this program? Mr. MCCARTHY. Poland is particularly outstanding in the development of mathematics. The Polish mathematical journals are among the most important journals in the world. I cannot single out any particular subject for Yugoslavia where they are outstanding, but they do have a number of universities. They have a number of scientific academies. These men are conducting research and publishing the results in journals and books which appear in their own countries. It is that material which we want to bring here through this program.

Mr. NORRELL. I hope in years to come the Polish people will be good friends of ours. The same is true of the people of Yugoslavia. I am hopeful we can get on peaceful relations with Russia and the rest of the Iron Curtain countries.

To what extent are the member libraries engaged in this program? Mr. McCARTHY. I think all the larger university and research libraries are trying to get publications from abroad, and from the countries. of Western Europe we get large numbers of them. From the countries to which this program will apply, with the exception of Spain, it is quite difficult to get publications.

For instance, my own library has been trying to get publications from Indonesia. We have a special Indonesian program. For a while we did fairly well. Now there is some kind of export embargo or barrier and we cannot get a thing.

Mr. NORRELL. Are all of the member libraries now engaged in the acquisition of foreign publications?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Yes, to varying extents, but nothing like the program contemplated under this legislation, if it should be approved. We are all doing it, but we are doing it in a small way. We also have budget problems. This would give the Library of Congress and, through the Library of Congress, other libraries, the benefit of a much stronger program than we have ever had before.

It did develop in World War II and immediately thereafter that we were pretty short on people who really knew many of the more distant countries of the world and knew them well, understood the people, knew how to deal with them. Some of our officials who were

sent abroad probably were not quite as well informed as they might have been.

Mr. NORRELL. Are there any further questions? Mr. Bow?
Mr. Bow. I have some questions, Mr. Chairman.

Is it Dr. McCarthy?

Mr. McCARTHY. Yes; but do not bother.

Mr. Bow. Dr. McCarthy, could you submit for the record at this point a list of the membership of the Association of Research Libraries?

Mr. McCARTHY. I have it right here, sir.

Mr. Bow. May I see it, please?

Mr. MCCARTHY. I would say that we list here the individuals whom we address. Actually, this is an association of institutions only. We simply use this for mailing.

Mr. Bow. Are the men whose names appear here

Mr. MCCARTHY. They are the heads of the institutions.

Mr. Bow. The Department of Agriculture Library is a member?
Mr. McCARTHY. That is right.

Mr. Bow. And the Boston Public Library and all those are actual members of the Association of Research Libraries?

Mr. McCARTHY. That is right. This is no personal membership. It is by institution only.

Mr. Bow. I see that the Library of Congress is also a member of the Association of Research Libraries.

Mr. McCARTHY. That is right; and the National Library of Medicine.

Mr. Bow. Are most of the colleges and universities?

Mr. McCARTHY. Most of the large universities are.

Mr. Bow. I would like to have this in the record at this point.

(The list referred to follows:)

ASSOCIATION OF RESEARCH LIBRARIES-MEMBERSHIP LIST, 1959

Foster E. Mohrhardt, librarian, U.S. Department of Agriculture Library, Washington, D.C.

Milton E. Lord, director, Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.

David A. Jonah, librarian, Brown University Library, Providence, R.I.
Donald Coney, librarian, University of California Library, Berkeley, Calif.
Lawrence C. Powell, librarian, University of California Library, Los Angeles,
Calif.

Herman H. Fussler, director, University of Chicago Libraries, Chicago, Ill.
Arthur T. Hamlin, librarian, University of Cincinnati Libraries, Cincinnati,
Ohio.

Ralph E. Ellsworth, director, University of Colorado Libraries, Boulder, Colo.
Richard H. Logsdon, director, Columbia University Libraries, New York, N.Y.
Stephen A. McCarthy, director, Cornell University Library, Ithaca, N.Y.
Herman R. Henkle, librarian, John Crerar Library, 86 East Randolph St., Chi-
cago, Ill.

Benjamin E. Powell, librarian, Duke University Libraries, Durham, N.C.
Stanley L. West, director, University of Florida Library, Gainesville, Fla.
Paul H. Buck, director, Harvard University Library, Cambridge, Mass.
Robert B. Downs, director, University of Illinois Library, Urbana, Ill.
Robert A. Miller, director, Indiana University Libraries, Bloomington, Ind.
Robert W. Orr, director, Iowa State College Library, Ames, Iowa.
Leslie W. Dunlap, director, State University of Iowa Libraries, Iowa City, Iowa.
John H. Berthel, librarian, Johns Hopkins University Library, Baltimore, Md.
A. F. Kuhlman, director, Joint University Libraries, Nashville, Tenn.
Robert Vosper, director, University of Kansas Library, Lawrence, Kans.

Lawrence S. Thompson, director, University of Kentucky Libraries, Lexington, Ky. L. Quincy Mumford, Librarian of Congress, the Library of Congress, Washington, D.C.

Sidney B. Smith, director, Louisiana State University Libraries, University Station-Baton Rouge, La.

William N. Locke, director, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Library, Cambridge, Mass.

Richard Chapin, librarian, Michigan State University Library, East Lansing, Mich.

Frederick H. Wagman, director, University of Michigan General Library, Ann Arbor, Mich.

Edward B. Stanford, librarian, University of Minnesota Libraries, Minneapolis, Minn.

Ralph H. Parker, librarian, University of Missouri Library, Columbia, Mo.

Col. Frank B. Rogers, director, National Library of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Frank A. Lundy, director, University of Nebraska Libraries, Lincoln, Nebr. Stanley M. Pargellis, librarian, the Newberry Library, Chicago, Ill.

Edward G. Freehafer, director, New York Public Library, 5th Avenue and 42d Street, New York, N.Y.

Ernest L. Hettich, director, New York University Libraries, Washington Square, New York, N.Y.

Jerrold Orne, director, University of North Carolina Libraries, Chapel Hill, N.C.
Jens Nyholm, librarian, Northwestern University Libraries, Evanston, Ill.
Lewis C. Branscomb, director, Ohio State University Libraries, Columbus, Ohio.
Kenneth M. Setton, director, University of Pennsylvania Libraries, Philadelphia,
Pa.

William S. Dix, librarian, Princeton University Library, Princeton, N.J.
John H. Moriarty, director, Purdue University Library, Lafayette, Ind.
John R. Russell, librarian, University of Rochester Libraries, Rochester, N.Y.
Donald Cameron, librarian, Rutgers University Library, New Brunswick, N.J.
Raynard C. Swank, director, Stanford University Libraries, Stanford Uni-
versity, Calif.

Alexander Moffit, librarian, University of Texas Libraries, Austin, Tex.

John Cook Wyllie, librarian, University of Virginia Libraries, Charlottesville,
Va.
Andrew J. Eaton, director, Washington University Libraries, St. Louis, Mo.
University of Washington library director, Seattle, Wash.

Louis Kaplan, director, University of Wisconsin Libraries, Madison, Wis.
James T. Babb, librarian, Yale University Libraries, New Haven, Conn.

Mr. Bow. Dr. McCarthy, will you explain to the committee, please, just what the universities and colleges and members of this association you represent would receive as a benefit from this program? Mr. McCARTHY. I will try to do that to the best of my ability. The authorizing legislation provided that

Mr. Bow. I am familiar with the authorizing legislation. The point I would like to have made clear now is what these individual members of your association would receive as the benefit.

Mr. MCCARTHY. These books would be cataloged in the country in which they are purchased, taking advantage of the knowledge of the foreign languages.

The books would then be brought to this country and one or two copies would be kept at the Library of Congress; the additional copies would be distributed to certain selected university and research libraries over the country where there is a particular program of research and teaching relating to that particular country. Mr. Bow. In other words, this would be a program to implement the acquisition of these books, a program already in progress. Your libraries now have books from these various countries?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We have some, yes, no question about it.

Mr. Bow. You have those and this would be to implement and add to the existing acquisition program!

Mr. McCARTHY. That is correct, and create a much stronger program by establishing purchasing missions in these countries.

Mr. Bow. And those you already have have been bought and paid for by the libraries themselves?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Yes; certainly.

Mr. Bow. What would be your recommendation to your organization if the suggestion were made that if we acquire these books in foreign countries, that the libraries pay for those which they receive? Mr. MCCARTHY. I am sure they would hope that this would not be the case, but if that were the case, I suppose they would to the extent of their ability.

Mr. Bow. The thing that I worry about in programs of this kind is that so many people seem to have an idea that we have a great reservoir of foreign currencies, and it just does not cost us anything to get into this kind of program. These foreign currencies are some of the most expensive dollars we spend. People forget we bought and paid for this currency with American taxpayers' dollars, and it has been pretty expensive.

Mr. MCCARTHY. We did that through the support of agricultural products; is that not right, sir?

Mr. Bow. But they are expensive dollars and they are the taxpayers' dollars. They do not belong to any particular group.

Mr. McCARTHY. That is right.

Mr. Bow. That being the case, we all being anxious to recover for the American taxpayer some of his losses, how do we explain to the American taxpayer that we are making a gift to a privileged groupthe educational group, if you please-at his expense

Mr. MCCARTHY. Sir, I would say we are not making a privileged group of them. I would say we are benefiting the Nation by making it possible to carry on research to teach students, to develop experts in these fields. I believe that is to the Nation's advantage and not to the advantage of, say, the University of Michigan or Cornell Uni

versity.

If I may say so, sir, we have already done some of it. We have trained a lot of State Department people and we have trained a lot of Air Force officers in these foreign languages. We have done it with

our own resources.

Mr. Bow. Yes, I think that is right, but I think, too, we will find most colleges and universities have had a great deal of support from other funds, and from Federal funds.

Mr. MCCARTHY. No question about that.

Mr. Bow. It would seem to me perhaps as a further contributionto their country, this might be a good area to do it. If we provide, through these funds, the availability of these books and records, it might be one way for us to recoup some of our losses.

This program is not just a matter of using foreign currencies. There are dollar appropriations here, too. It will take hard dollars to implement this program.

Mr. McCARTHY. It will take dollars to set it

up.

Mr. Bow. Would the association and the universities be willing to put up the $145,000 that is estimated to be necessary to set it up? Mr. McCARTHY. No, sir.

Mr. Bow. In other words, if we set up this program which would use about $2 million of American taxpayers' funds overseas, you would not be willing to put up $145,000 to implement it?

Mr. McCARTHY. No, sir.

Mr. Bow. How much are we spending now through the general appropriation of the Library of Congress for the purchase of books abroad, which are of great advantage to the association which you represent?

Mr. McCARTHY. I cannot answer that question, sir, except in a very general way. The appropriation which the Library of Congress has to buy books is between $400,000 and $500,000. This is not only for buying books in the few countries listed here, but it buys books in this country and in countries of Western Europe, and so on.

These books are serviceable to other libraries only if we buy from the Library of Congress a microfilm or photostat or if we send our faculty members or students to Washington to use them.

Mr. Bow. Would you explain what the Farmington plan is?

Mr. McCARTHY. I will be glad to try. This is a cooperative undertaking by which a group of some 60 libraries, most of them in our association-but there are some others, as well-who have agreed to take books on various subjects from different countries of origin and have said we will accept-I will take an example-we will accept all books on geology from Sweden. Arrangements are made with a dealer in Sweden who sends all geology publications to, I will say, Cornell, and we pay for them.

Through this program 2 years ago the last year's report is not complete-about 20,000 volumes were brought in at a cost of somewhere between $75,000 and $100,000.

Mr. Bow. Who operates the Farmington plan?

Mr. MCCARTHY. It is run by a committee of our association. It runs at almost no administrative expense.

Mr. Bow. But the books that are purchased are bought and paid for?

Mr. MCCARTHY. They are bought by the individual libraries. They are cataloged and entered in the National Union Catalogue and they are available for photocopying or interlibrary loan to any library in the country.

Mr. Bow. I will not belabor this much more, Mr. Chairman.

Just what do you anticipate the Library of Congress will do in this program? Anything more than just purchasing and cataloging? Mr. MCCARTHY. I believe, sir, that is all that is proposed in this program.

Mr. Bow. You do not think there will be any translations or printing or binding?

Mr. MCCARTHY. The enabling legislation provides that there may be indexing, translations, and so on. As I understand it, they are not proposing anything but to buy and catalog.

Mr. Bow. As a librarian of very high standing in this Nation, Dr. McCarthy, to do this job in Egypt how many employees do you think we should have, to buy books and catalog? How many American employees would it take?

Mr. MCCARTHY. This is a difficult question, sir. It would be set up presumably in Cairo and possibly also in Damascus. I will say you