With the varied duties imposed upon the clerk's office, as I have indicated, and the high degree of responsibility and accountability, be must surround himself with capable and loyal personal assistants.

LUMP SUM FOR CLERICAL ASSISTANTS

Mr. NORRELL. All right, Mr. Clerk.

I see on the same page that you have another lump-sum item of $10,670.

What is that for: and how is it used?

Mr. ROBERTS. That is for emergency employees, where someone is sick or incapacitated and we have to have additional employees to help out.

Mr. NORRELL. Are all of these jobs filled at the present time?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, the greatest business comes along at the beginning of a session and at the end of a session, and it is usually then that we put on some extra help-in May and June at the end of a fiscal year, or in January at the beginning of a session. That is where we have spent that money. In the bill clerk's office they have had four or five extra employees up there to process the bills. For the first 2 weeks they were swamped.

Mr. NORRELL. All right.

TYPEWRITERS AND OTHER MACHINES

There has been some recent publicity about typewriters and office equipment.

What about the situation as briefly as you can tell us, Mr. Clerk? Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Chairman, manual typewriters are furnished Members of the House and other offices of the House under the act of March 4, 1907. With the increasing use of electric typewriters, the manual typewriter is fast fading out of the picture. This has created some problems, but I am taking positive action to meet the changed conditions.

In the first place, the purchase of new manual typewriters has been virtually discontinued. Occasionally, we have a demand for a new manual, but in each case we try to utilize one of the used machines in stock, if at all possible.

Because the inventory of manual typewriters has grown so rapidly, I recently instructed the Property Custodian to turn 100 machines over to the General Services Administration for disposition. I shall repeat that just as soon as I can do so.

Most of these manual typewriters are old and require considerable maintenance; however, since the beginning of this fiscal year we have cut down measurably on the use of outside repairmen for this work. Our own maintenance man was out during the previous fiscal year for many weeks on account of illness, but he now has the situation well in hand and except for the complete overhaul of a few selected machines, I am not authorizing any outside repair work.

When it appeared that we were fast getting out of the manual typewriter business, I asked the General Accounting Office to assist my people in a physical inventory of all the machines we had. During the course of their inventory, it was reported to me that all of the machines were not physically located where the records indicated them

to be. I immediately asked the assistant property custodian in charge of that office to institute a search for all machines reported as missing. That operation is still in process. Many of the machines have been located; some were in offices not in use; some were located in places other than indicated on the records of the property custodian's office; some were out of the building, and still others had been sold and the money accounted for, but the inventory cards had not been properly marked.

I think that good progress is being made in accounting for all these machines, but I am unable to make a definite statement at the moment. I would like to point out that most of these machines have been in use a long time; that this is the first inventory ever supervised by the General Accounting Office; and that machines are moved from office to office in many instances without the property office being notified. I assure you that positive steps are being taken to locate all machines and to retrieve any that may be outside the buildings in violation of the rule of the Speaker that no typewriters be removed fromthe buildings.

In order to bring you up to date on typewriter sales, I point out that at one time we sold typewriters to Members and employees at prices established by the various typewriter companies. Actually, the typewriter to be sold was turned over to the respective typewriter company for credit against future purchases. Then the Member or employee desiring to purchase the machine bought it from the typewriter

company.

At the suggestion of the Comptroller General that practice was discontinued last year and since that time proceeds from the sale of used typewriters have been turned over to the Treasury.

Within the past few days, however, I have discontinued altogether the sale of used typewriters. I propose to turn surplus machines over to GSA for disposal.

For the information of Members who desire such machines, the General Services Administration has a program of overhauling office machines and placing them back in use. Arrangements have been made so that these machines can be purchased by a Member through the stationery room. I understand that they have various types of office machines and typewriters. The most popular item is the overhauled manual typewriter which they sell to Members at a reasonable figure.

Mr. NORRELL. The investigation of this matter was started by the GAO?

Mr. ROBERTS. I started that investigation, Mr. Chairman.
I asked for that audit.

Mr. NORRELL. Have they made any reports up to date?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, the report I gave to this committee for 1957, which I asked for, was only filed on December 12, 1958. They are still working on the one for 1958.

Mr. NORRELL. What did they report?

Mr. ROBERTS. They have not made the report. They made the report for 1957, but they have not made the report for 1958. So far as I know there are no missing typewriters. There may be some misplaced, but we are doing everything we can to see that they are being put in the proper place.

Mr. KIRWAN. What I want to ask you is this:

When they sold the typewriter why was that fact not put on the records properly so there would not be any mistake about it? Simply put "sold" on it. You said the record of the sale was not made out properly.

Mr. ROBERTS. I am prepared to discuss this whole thing, Mr.

Kirwan.

Mr. KIRWAN. I am not interested in discussing the minute details but I have reference to what you said just moment ago, It would involve a very simple operation.

It would involve the very essence of simplicity. In other words, the typewriter was sold, and it was paid for, but such fact was not properly recorded.

Mr. ROBERTS. It was made out properly

Mr. KIRWAN. But you said some of the records were not made out properly on them.

Mr. ROBERTS. The General Accounting Office said we had not kept the records properly.

Mr. KIRWAN. That is the point. How could they overlook just putting on a piece of paper the fact as to whether it was paid for and cash received, or whatever it was?

Mr. ROBERTS. The assistant property custodian says his records show that.

Mr. KIRWAN. What was that?

Mr. ROBERTS. The assistant property custodian says his cards show that they were accounted for.

Mr. KIRWAN. But you said that there were mistakes made, and the records did not show that they were sold or paid for. That is the point I make.

Mr. HARPER. That they were sold, but had not been entered on the records.

Mr. KIRWAN. Why not? Who was the one who failed to mark it on the records when the typewriter was sold and paid for?

Mr. ROBERTS. The assistant property custodian's records show every transaction and that they were properly entered on the books, but the General Accounting Office has had trouble in tying that down. Mr. KIRWAN. Why did they have trouble with it when it should be the most simple thing in the world to handle?

Mr. ROBERTS. It is the same system that has been used over there for 50 years.

Mr. KIRWAN. All I am asking is how could the General Accounting Office, which investigates expenditure of billions of dollars, have trouble telling that a typewriter was sold and paid for? That is the information I would like to have.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not think they are having any trouble with that. They have checked with the typewriter companies.

You

Mr. KIRWAN. But you said they were having trouble on it, and that the sales were not properly marked or it was not returned properly. I am only taking you at what you say, and not what they said. said the typewriters were sold and that they were not checked properly.

Mr. ROBERTS. It might have Mr. KIRWAN. That is just it. thing which they did not say.

happened 10 or 20 years ago. Now you are coming back to someYou said you have the report for 1957.

You further said that you did not have the report for 1958, but in the report of 1957 you say they found trouble with it, and that the sales or dispositions were not properly recorded. Suppose the Ford Motor Co. which sells hundreds of thousands of cars a year did not have such sales properly recorded?

Mr. HARPER. Every typewriter sold was paid for. The money was turned in to the Treasury.

Mr. KIRWAN. I am not questioning that. The point is that Mr. Roberts said a couple of minutes ago that they were not properly recorded.

Mr. ROBERTS. Years ago it was not properly recorded in the old records of the Property Custodian's Office only on a card, which is not the way the Accounting Office would do it.

Mr. KIRWAN. Now you are telling me how it happened. That is not the information I wanted. When you made the statement before you just simply cut it off by saying the sale of the typewriter was not properly recorded.

Mr. ROBERTS. It was improperly recorded.

Mr. KIRWAN. If you had said that happened years ago, but the system was changed, that would have been different. However, you did not say that. You said that the sale was not properly recorded. Now, you come back and say this happened years ago, and now I know when it happened. It happened years ago.

Mr. KIRWAN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. NORRELL. I think maybe you are not qualified to say what the General Accounting Office will or will not do or say. You can

talk about yourself but maybe you should not cover what the General Accounting Office may have done or may not have done.

Mr. ROBERTS. Let me discuss this off the record and then if you want it on the record we can put it on.

Mr. NORRELL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. NORRELL. We want to get all the facts we can but I do not know what we can do until the report now in preparation is made. Mr. HORAN. I do not either, but I would like to have a chronological story that will give us something we can put our teeth into.

Mr. ROBERTS. I asked for an audit of the Property Custodian's Office in 1955 when I first took office. They made a report and did not mention this in 1955, and in 1956 they did not, and in 1957 they did not.

Mr. HORAN. When do you expect the report for 1958 to be made? Mr. ROBERTS. It should not be very long. The one for 1957 was filed in December 1958. I asked for it July 1, 1958.

Mr. HORAN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. NORRELL. Mr. Bow.

Mr. Bow. I have no questions at this time.

Mr. NORRELL. Mr. Steed.

Mr. STEED. This GAO report refers under "Electrical and mechanical equipment," to the fact that 54 items were missing, including 46 that had been moved to members' district offices or their homes. the light of the present policy laid down by the Speaker, has any action been taken to bring those back into your jurisdiction?

Mr. ROBERTS. Were those dictating machines?

Mr. STEED. It just says electrical and mechanical equipment.

In

Mr. HORAN. What report is that?

Mr. STEED. The GAO report dated December 1958.

Mr. ROBERTS. As I said before, the Speaker authorizes dictating equipment to go out of the building. That may all be dictating equipment.

Mr. STEED. Since you got this report, have you done anything to find out what these 46 items are?

Mr. ROBERTS. They are charged to each member, to the district, and the lady in charge says that has all been taken care of; it has alĺ been returned and accounted for.

Mr. STEED. This report says eight items were reported unknown by the offices to which they were issued. What adjustment was made in that regard?

Mr. ROBERTS. All I know is she told me it was all accounted for. She has all those records and will be glad to come over here and testify.

Mr. NORRELL. Any further questions?

Mr. Bow. Yes. Referring to that report just referred to, you may be satisfied, Mr. Clerk

Mr. ROBERTS. She says it is all accounted for.

Mr. Bow. Let me finish my question. You may be satisfied by someone saying it is all taken care of and accounted for, but I am not. Why do you not know about it? You are the Clerk of the House of Representatives.

Mr. ROBERTS. Our records reflect exactly where these items are. Mr. Bow. This report says▬▬▬

Mr. ROBERTS. She told me

Mr. Bow. Let me finish my questions. You and I will get along fine if you do not interrupt me, but if you interrupt me we will not get along.

You say you are satisfied because this woman told you the records are all right. Have you made any further check other than your talk with her when she told you that the records are all right?

Mr. ROBERTS. Since December? I have not checked the records personally.

Mr. Bow. Do you not think that is your responsibility as Clerk of the House?

Mr. ROBERTS. I get a monthly report from her and that report showed everything was all right and accounted for.

Mr. Bow. Then there is a conflict between her report and the report of the General Accounting Office. Is that correct?

Mr. ROBERTS. This is a report that was filed in December 1958 for the year 1957. We could have had them all back in place and they could have gotten in the wrong places many times since then and we might have them all back now. This report is for 1957.

Mr. Bow. You are talking about what might have happened. I am not interested in what might have happened. I am interested in what did happen and what the records show. You said these things happened years ago. I am wondering if things are not happening now as well as years ago.

Mr. ROBERTS. The General Accounting Office says everything is in order in electrical and mechanical equipment, and that is what we are talking about.