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Mr. BUCHANAN. How is that?

Mr. Cox. I wonder if the taxpayers of the City of Washington would lose interest in this proposal if it was made certain they were going to have to pay the debt?

Mr. BUCHANAN. That is problematical; they may or may not lose interest in it. That can be better answered by the taxpayer himself; I cannot answer it.

Mr. Cox. You know he will.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I will tell you this, that when they got the million seven hundred and fifty thousand dollar extension for sewers, when it came to my committee if they had known they had to pay 70 percent of it back, the would not have applied for it.

Mr. Cox. That is right.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Now I said it could not be paid without raising taxes. Let us see. The total revenue of the District collected for the year ending June 1933-that is last year-was $28,165,647. That is the total revenue. The bill as passed by the House for the next fiscal year allowed $32,650,000. I won't go into the hundreds of dollars; they are a mere trifle. The bill as approved by the Senate committee for the next fiscal year allows $37.224,000-an increase of over $4,000,000 by the Senate over the House bill.

Now part of that increase is $1,700,000 for relief purposes, approved by the Budget. That is going to have to be allowed by the conferees probably. It is safe to say the difference will be split and half of the increase put in by the Senate will be allowed by the House committee, and the Senate will recede from the other half, and it will be paid fifty-fifty.

Now what will that leave? It will leave the bill to be passed for the next fiscal year $34,937,000. Subtracting the entire revenue of the District from that [$28,000,000], it leaves you $6,772,000. Now subtract your Federal contribution of $5,700.000 from that, and put in the whole amount, without taking off anything, for the sewage extension, and you will find that the revenue of the District is $1,072,000 in the hole on the current appropriations for this year.

And that is not a large appropriation for the District. They had 48 million one year; they had 44 million; they had 38 million. So beyond question the current expenses of the District are more than the total revenue of the District and the Federal contribution combined. So that it is foolish to pass out a bill expecting the District of Columbia to pay $1.800,000 a year on this $20,000,000 that they borrow, without raising the revenue derived from property, or obtaining it from some other source.

Mr. DRIVER. That would provide a deficit of $3,500,000 if you add that to the deficit of the last year?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes, sir. Now it has been said-I want to call the attention of the committee to that-it has been said that the District has been deprived of the benefits accruing to other cities under P.W.A.; therefore the District ought to be put on an equal basis with other cities.

Mr. Cox. Well is the demand for these grants as great in the city of Washington as it is in the rest of the country?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SABATH. The demand might be, but what about the need?

Mr. Cox. I mean the need for it.

Mr. BUCHANAN. No; the need is nothing like as great. Now there came before my committee a gentleman who is representing the libraries, pleading for an increase in the appropriation for the libraries, and he went to the trouble to select 10 cities that he claimed were comparable to Washington in population and so forth, and he produced before us the amount of money that was appropriated for libraries in those cities, as a reason why we should increase our appropriation, comparable to the appropriation made for those cities, and I have taken those 10 cities. I merely mention that fact to show you they were not picked especially to suit the present case, but were selected without any reference to the present case at all. Let us see what it shows.

Mr. Cox. Did you test the accuracy of the statement?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Oh, yes; it was an accurate statement all right. Now let us see what it shows:

"Grants, loan and grant, and loans to cities of comparable size to the District of Columbia."

Milwaukee, population, 578,249; public works allocation, $6,620,000.

Washington, D.C., population 486,869. They borrowed $4,426,000. Milwaukee is 100,000 greater population than Washington.

Buffalo, New York, population 573,000, in round numbers; they borrowed $3,129,000-and Washington has borrowed $4,427,000.

Pittsburgh, 529,817 population, has borrowed $2,000,000, and Washington has borrowed $4,427,000.

Minneapolis, 464,356 population; borrowed $11,705,000. That is one that is ahead of Washington and I think she is ahead on relief, too, and I think she is ahead in getting into the Treasury on nearly everything.

New Orleans, 458,762 population, and has borrowed only $470,000. Cincinnati, 451,000 population, and has borrowed only $683,000. Newark, 442,000 population, and has borrowed only $22,000. Kansas City, 399,000 population, and has borrowed only $1,635,000. Seattle, 365,000 population, has borrowed only $108,000. Indianapolis, 364,000 population, has borrowed only $652,000. And Washington has gotten, not borrowed, $4,427,000 and has not contributed, has not repaid, and don't intend to repay, so far as we know, a single cent of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does that $4,000,000 come from?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Why, it is just allotted to them by Public Works out of the Federal Treasury.

Mr. MAPES. From P.W.A. funds?

Mr. BUCHANAN. From P.W.A. funds; it is just allotted to them. Mr. O'CONNOR. Mr. Buchanan, you made a few minutes ago a most remarkable statement when you say that the revenue of the District is not meeting the appropriations and still the tax rate in the bill was deliberately reduced further to a very low figure of $1.20.

Mr. BUCHANAN. The tax rate was reduced in the House bill because the House committee and the House reduced the Budget figures and reduced the appropriation, you understand, and, if that reduced appropriation went through, it is posible the District revenues would

have met the appropriation. But the bill goes on to the Senate and, in addition to that, since the Appropriations Committee reported the bill and since the bill went to the House, there have been other estimates from the Budget which came over to the Senate one of $1,750,000 for relief-and that threw the thing all out of gear.

Mr. O'CONNOR. It looks to me as though there is no margin there at all.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I frankly admit to you on the basis of the Senate bill, or even on the basis of the new Budget figures, which make $35,000,000 under the Budget figures, why you cannot stand any reduction in taxation.

Mr. CANNON. And the bill as passed by the House would have left, after reducing the tax rate, a balance in the Treasury. Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes.

Mr. CANNON. The Chairman (Mr. Buchanan) refers to the additions made by the Senate.

Mr. BUCHANAN. But as you say, Mr. Cannon, at that time and on those figures the District had a surplus in the Treasury and this bill was drawing on that surplus.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Buchanan, do you know what the situation is with reference to the funds of the Public Works Administration at the present time?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As to the possibility of an allotment of this amount to the District of Columbia if this bill should be passed? Mr. BUCHANAN. Let me read you a notation of the Public Works on the funds at the present time:

The bill, S. 3404, authorizes the P.W.A. to lend the Commissioners $20,000,000 or any part thereof out of funds heretofore authorized by law for the P.W.A. There is no balance in present funds unallocated and there is no reservation to meet this $20,000,000. Therefore, this bill is absolutely ineffective as it stands.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is that memorandum from?

Mr. BUCHANAN. This is a memorandum taken down over the phone, as given to me this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. From the P.W.A.?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes; from the P.W.A.

Mr. DRIVER. Of course this bill anticipates additional moneys will be granted during the present session.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Now about the additional money to be granted: I personally know that the money to be granted has been curtailed or reduced several hundred million dollars from the original idea o the President and that practically all of that will be allocated and this is not in it. And I will state, just incidentally, that insofar as the road appropriation is concerned, you will not get anything like your authorization in that bill, if the President's budget is adhered to. Of course your road appropriation would get recognition in that mill, but nothing like to the extent of $400,000,000. It has got to be curtailed, unless other enterprises inaugurated under the recovery program have to suffer beyond what they ought to suffer.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Let me ask you this, Mr. Buchanan: Of these listed proposed projects here, there are two of them that have what you might call a sentimental appeal.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes.

Mr. O'CONNOR. One is the sewage disposal plant and the other is the tuberculosis hospital.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes.

Mr. O'CONNOR. I understand the latter has been taken care of. Mr. BUCHANAN. Oh, we have a tuberculosis hospital, but they contend they need an extension there. Now the Senate bill takes care of that, if the conferees agree to it, and the Senate bill also takes care to some extent of your school buildings, which they mention in this thing, if the conferees agree to it. The only thing not taken care of in the Senate bill of very material importance is the disposal plant.

Mr. O'CONNOR. That is a very serious thing.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I do not suppose it would cost over two and a half million, would it?

Mr. DONOVAN. $8,000,000.

Mr. BUCHANAN. That looks like a great deal, from my standpoint, but if the District could pay out $1,800,000 a year to pay back a loan of $20,000,000, it certainly could stand a reasonable appropriation for this sewage disposal and hospital in the regular bills, and there would be no intention or effort on the part of my committee to block a deserved project for sewage disposal. And you do not need it all at one time; it will take a year, or 2 or 3 years, to build it. No doubt it would take 6 to 8 months to analyze the grade lines and get the plans for it.

Mr. DRIVER. Was that matter presented to your committee during the course of the hearings on the District bill?

Mr. BUCHANAN. No. sir.

Mr. SMITH. Was it presented to the Budget and turned down by the Budget?

Mr. BLANTON. It did not come in the Budget at all.

Mr. SMITH. I did not ask you if it came in the Budget.

Mr. BLANTON. That is what the Chairman (Mr. Buchanan) asked. It did not come in the Budget.

Mr. SABATH. Was it considered by the committee?

Mr. BUCHANAN. It was not seriously, because it was not in the Budget. All these gentlemen have to do is to present this thing to the Budget, present it in the proper manner, and it is to be assumed that the Budget and the President will not turn down a deserving item as vital to the health of the people as that may be, or is reported to be.

Mr. DRIVER. But suppose they do; what recourse does the District have except to come to your committee?

Mr. BUCHANAN. The only recourse they have, if the Budget turns it down, is to come before the Appropriation Committee of the House, or to go before the District Legislative Committee, either one. District Legislative Committee could bring in a bill specifically authorizing that, and this committee could grant a rule bringing that up before the House, and it could be put through.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Mr. Cochran has a bill in there now to provide for sewage disposal.

Mr. BUCHANAN. There is no doubt if the District Committee should report out a bill of that sort and it came before this committee, this committee would grant a rule. But they are covering too much

here, trying to take too big a bite; they are fishing with too big bait and the fish cannot swallow it, and we are the fish.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. BUCHANAN. There is one other thing. I reckon your attention has been called to this. Here are the total grants by the P.W.A. to the District of Columbia. By that, I mean we get nothing of it back. This is $12,030,810.

Mr. MAPES. Will you read the principal items of it?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes; Civil Works Administration, Federal projects, $1,380,775; District of Columbia projects, $2,795,275; Reformatory at Lorton, Va.-that is one of the items in this bill-$136,000. Public Works Administration, highway construction $1,918,469; sewers, $1,759,500; National Capital parks, $748,650.

Federal Emergency Relief, direct aid, $2,605,681; food, coal, and so forth, $500,960; transient relief, $185,500.

Or a total of $12,030,810. Now if you add to that the $5,700,000 contribution that the Federal Government makes to the District, you have a grand total of $17,730,810.

Mr. DRIVER. That was an outright grant?

Mr. BUCHANAN. All an outright grant, except sewers and parks and which, as it stands now, is an outright grant unless the House makes the Senate recede from their position.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Do you think the tuberculosis hospital appropriation in the Senate bill will stay in there?

Mr. BUCHANAN. I am unable to tell that. Of course, the conferees can tell more about that. Two of them are here, Mr. Cannon and Mr. Blanton. I cannot tell you; I do not try to control the conferees. If they see proper to advise with me, I gladly advise with them and discuss matters with them; but, as for trying to control them, I do not do that.

Mr. O'CONNOR. I did not mean that.

Mr. BLANTON. I may say I am going to vote, as one conferee, to keep it in, and I want to leave with the committee this picture of the $625,000 tuberculosis hospital that is just being built now and will be completed now in about 2 months [exhibiting picture]. I want you to look at that big building, a $625,000 building, that is just being completed now, having 150 beds for tubercular children. And I am going to vote for that additional help as a member of the conferees, because I believe it is necessary. So that covers that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Buchanan, we are very much obliged to you for coming and making a statement before the committee.

Now we will be glad to hear from a representative of the city Commissioners, from whichever gentleman you may select as your spokesman.

STATEMENT OF HON. M. C. HAZEN, PRESIDENT BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Commissioner HAZEN. I will just make a brief statement and turn it over to Major Donovan, our auditor, who can give you the detail as to the figures.

There are only two things I would like to impress on the committee, if I may. First, we are only asking in this bill the same authority that the States have to borrow money from the P.W.A.

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