Now it seems to us that the District of Columbia should have the same privilege as our States.

The second point I would like to emphasize is that not a dollar of this money can be spent but it is approved by the P.W.A. The Commissioners have already had a consultation with Mr. Ickes. We have to submit plans and specifications for every project and it has to be approved by the P.W.A. before we can spend a nickel.

Now as to the merits of these projects, I am very much concerned about a number of them. We cannot do these things under the present financial set-up for the District of Columbia. We must borrow money to do those very necessary things. The justification for that I think can probably be better stated by Mr. Prettyman, our present Corporation Counsel, and Major Donovan.

This sewage disposal plant has been investigated by three of the leading sanitary engineers of the United States and they have submitted a report. That report says it will cost a million dollars to build the plant. Everybody knows the Potomac River, and the idea of the National Capital dumping all of its raw sewage into the Potomac River, it seems to me would not be tolerated in any little city. The Potomac River is one of the greatest rivers of our country. It is destroying fish life, destroying the possibility of homes along the river, and there is liable to be an epidemic. The Izaak Walton League have made a very careful survey of this matter and they have endorsed this sewage disposal plant unanimously. The CHAIRMAN. What was the reaction from the P.W.A. when you interviewed them on this matter?

Commissioner HAZEN. It was very friendly, I took it; would not you say so, Colonel?

Major GOTWALS. Very friendly.

Mr. Cox. What do you say to the proposition that provision should be made to pay this back by raising taxes?

Commissioner HAZEN. If it is necessary, the Commissioners have authority to do it. The tax rate now is a dollar and a half; a few years ago it was $1.70.

Mr. Cox. Is a rate of $1.70 sufficient to raise revenue to take care of this?

Commissioner HAZEN. We think so.

Mr. Cox. What do you say to the statement of Mr. Buchanan? Commissioner HAZEN. I would like to have Major Donovan make a statement on that when I conclude.

Mr. Cox. You say you feel the District of Columbia should have the same borrowing privilege as the States?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox. I take it you are likewise prepared to concede that the States should have the same Federal treatment that is accorded by the Government to the District of Columbia, are you?

Commissioner HAZEN. I think so.

Mr. Cox. In other words, following the policy of making tremendous grants of the people's money to the District of Columbia, the city of Washington, they should proceed to make like grants proportionately to the rest of the States?

Commissioner HAZEN. Well, taking into consideration this is the Nation's capital, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. Cox. Yes; I expected you to come back to that. I did not think you would be willing to stand by your statement.

Commissioner HAZEN. I mean that we should have the same fair, honest treatment as the States.

Mr. Cox. Yes; but your notion of honest treatment is that the country as a whole shall give the city of Washington, the District of Columbia, preferential treatment?

Commissioner HAZEN. No, I do not think that. I think if the Federal Government pays the same taxes on its property here that a private citizen does, a private taxpayer, that is only fair, it seems to me.

Mr. Cox. Do you think that Congress ought to adopt a measure providing for the Government's paying taxes on the property that it has located here in the District of Columbia?

Commissioner HAZEN. Well, they should pay a reasonable

amount.

Mr. Cox. Do you know of any government in the world that pays taxes upon its own property?

Commissioner HAZEN. I do not know of any other

Mr. Cox. Do you know of any government in the world that makes a contribution to support the municipality, as is done by the United States?

Commissioner HAZEN. I do not know of any other city in the world in the same position as this city.

Mr. Cox. Do you know of a city in the world that is of comparable size where the tax rate is as low as it is in the city of Washington?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir, right here in our own cityMr. Cox. What cities?

Commissioner HAZEN. There was a statement made before the Senate, the other day by the assessor that our per capita tax is a little higher here than in most cities.

Mr. Cox. Do you know of any city in the world of comparable size which has felt the depression less than the city of Washington? Commissioner HAZEN. That may be true.

Mr. Cox. Or a State where the income is more certain to the investor than the city of Washington?

Commissioner HAZEN. I think we are probably fortunate in that

respect.

Mr. Cox. Do not you think the people of the city of Washington have had all the advantage-have had a tremendous advantage over all the rest of the country?

Commissioner HAZEN. During this depression?

Mr. Cox. Yes; during normal conditions, also.

Commissioner HAZEN. Mr. Congressman, I think our people pay as much taxes as the people do in any other city of comparable

size.

Mr. Cox. Do you mean the city of Washington pays as much taxes as they do in other cities?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox. Have you studied the Mapes' report?
Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox. That was made here a year or so ago?

Commissioner HAZEN. To some extent that was made before my time, however.

Mr. Cox. That was made before your time?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox. I want to commend it to you. You ought to take and study it again.

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that all that you desire to say?

Commissioner HAZEN. I think so; except, if there is any question you want to ask me about those different items suggested in the billthe tuberculosis hospital, the municipal center, and the appropriation for the schools.

Mr. SABATH. It has been already explained.

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes; it has been already explained.

Mr. O'CONNOR. I would like to find out about that sewage disposal. Over how long a period of years would that money be used, and how much would be needed, for instance, the first year, and how much would be spent over the various years?

Commissioner HAZEN. I would like the engineer commissioner to answer that.

Major GOTWALS. That will be expended over 4 years.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Or about 2 million a year?

Major GOTWALS. The first year only half a million.

The CHAIRMAN. What character of obligation do you propose to give to the Secretary of the Interior?

Commissioner HAZEN. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. What character of obligation does the city of Washington propose to give to the Secretary of the Interior to insure the repayment of this 70 percent?

Commissioner HAZEN. That is entirely in the hands of Congress. The CHAIRMAN. It is not provided for in this bill.

Commissioner HAZEN. It is provided in the bill that there shall not be less than $1,300,000 repaid annually.

The CHAIRMAN. The terms to be fixed by the Secretary of the

Interior?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The terms for securing the allotment?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir. Of course, Congress would have to appropriate the money each year.

The CHAIRMAN. Congress would have to appropriate the money each year?

Mr. O'CONNOR. That is just the question now. That admission is a serious thing.

Commissioner HAZEN. No; but the Commissioners will be required, under this act, to provide $1,300,000 in their budget to you. Then it would be up to the Congress to approve that budget.

Mr. O'CONNOR. The question is whether that is to come out of your hands, or is going to come entirely out of the Federal allotment. Commissioner HAZEN. It will not; it will be put in just the same as the cost of operating the sewer department, the highway department, or any other department.

The CHAIRMAN. Has the city of Washington any authority under existing law to issue bonds.

Commissioner HAZEN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Or notes?

Commissioner HAZEN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what is running in my mind-what character of security you have in mind to give the Public Works as security for the repayment of this loan.

Commissioner ALLEN. A bill, an act of Congress, the legal department of Public Works says, Mr. Chairman, will be sufficient. The CHAIRMAN. What would be sufficient?

Commissioner ALLEN. This act, this bill, passed by both Houses of Congress and signed by the President.

Mr. SABATH. Without any security?

Commissioner ALLEN. Yes.

Mr. Cox. It obligates the Commissioners to do something they want the power to do; is not that true?

Commissioner HAZEN. No.

Mr. Cox. Did you say it was not within the power of the Commissioners to obligate the city in any wise for the repayment of a debt?

Commissioner ALLEN. It is not in its power now; it will be after this bill is passed.

Commissioner HAZEN. We have no authority to borrow a nickel now and obligate the District.

Now I would like to have Major Donovan make a statement, and you can ask him the questions about our ability to repay this money. Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask Mr. Hazen a question before he leaves the stand, and I think it might clarify the question of the repayment of this loan to some extent.

Under the mechanics of your budget now, under the present law, if this bill passes and you are required to pay so much per year, then under existing law you would include that item in your budget? Commissioner HAZEN. Absolutely.

Mr. SMITH. And under existing law the authority and duty is placed on the Commissioners annually of fixing the tax rate at a sufficient amount to cover whatever that budget may be.

Commissioner HAZEN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SMITH. So that if this additional appropriation would necessitate a raise from 10 cents per hunderd on your tax levy, you would then fix your tax rate at $1.60 instead of $1.50? Is not that the mechanics of the situation?

Commissioner HAZEN. We have authority to do it.

Mr. SMITH. You are required by law to do it, are you not-to fix the tax rate to take care of your budget?

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SABATH. In view of the fact it will require 4 years to build the plant and in view of the fact your tax rate is so low and has been reduced, could you not by increasing the tax rate in the next year start and pay as you go along from the increased tax rate?

Commissioner HAZEN. Congressman, I think these things are so urgent that the projects should be started at once, rather than to draw them out over a great number of years.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have a surplus in your treasury now? Commissioner HAZEN. No, sir.

Mr. SMITH. Even if you had a surplus, you could not expend it without Congress said so, could you?

Commissioner HAZEN. No, sir.

Mr. SMITH. It does not make any difference whether it is Uncle Sam's money or the District of Columbia money?

Commissioner HAZEN. If we had $10,000,000 we could not spend a nickel of it without Congress said so.

Mr. MAPES. Of course you could put an item in the appropriations bill.

Commissioner HAZEN. Yes.

Mr. SMITH. You cannot put an item in the appropriations bill unless the Budget says so?

Commissioner HAZEN. No; not unless the Budget says so.

Mr. SABATH. That is not true in the Senate; you can get anything you want in the appropriation bill in the Senate, whether or not it is needed, at any time and all of the time. That has been my experience.

Mr. SMITH. That has not been my experience, and I have been before the Senate each time ever since I have been here.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not you regard the proposition of the sewage disposal plant as of the greatest imperative immediate need in this program?

Commissioner HAZEN. Mr. Chairman, I am not certain whether I would put that before the tuberculosis hospital, or not.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but I understand there are already some arrangements made along that line.

Commissioner HAZEN. That provides for your children's tuberculosis hospital with beds for 150 children. We now only have beds, as I understand it-and Dr. Peabody is here and can tell you about that we only have half a bed for every death; is not that right? Dr. PEABODY. That is right.

Commissioner HAZEN. While the best authority says we should have two beds.

Dr. PEABODY. We have 25 beds for children.

Commisioner HAZEN. This 150 beds for tubercular children will not take care of our situation. I think I am right when I say we have about a thousand cases of tuberculosis and about 3 or 4 hundred beds, Doctor?

Dr. PEABODY. Yes, sir.

Mr. O'CONNOR. How much will that cost; how much will a tuberculosis hospital under the revised plans cost?

Commissioner HAZEN. Two million dollars; but if Mr. Ickes says a million and a half, we will build a million and a half hospital. That is the story of that. We will do the best we can on whatever we get. We figure it will cost 2 million dollars.

Mr. SMITH. Jut one more question, on the comparative importance of these items. I would like to say something relative to the conditions at Lorton.

Commissioner HAZEN. Lorton, I think, is one of the most dangerous situations we have, and we plan, under this bill, to spend perhaps $500,000 there. That institution was originally a reformatory, Mr. Chairman, and now it is a penitentiary where go all of our criminals of all types. They used to send them to the Federal penitentiaries,