Mr. CONYERS. The subcommittee will come to order.

Our next witness is Mayor Charles Carsner. chairman of the National Association of Regional Councils Public Safety Policy Committee, of Victoria, Tex., whom we welcome before the subcommittee and introduce in its entirety his prepared statement.

If you would identify the gentleman who is with you, you are free to begin your comments.

Mr. CARSNER. Would you like me to read the statement, sir?

Mr. CONYERS. No, sir, I would prefer that you identify who is with you and then in your own words, you might want to tell us a couple of points that represent the thrust of your testimony before the subcommittee.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES CARSNER, MAYOR OF VICTORIA, TEX., AND CHAIRMAN OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COUNCILS PUBLIC SAFETY POLICY COMMITTEE, ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN BOSLEY

Mr. CARSNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As you stated, I am Charles Carsner, mayor of Victoria, Tex., and chairman of the Public Safety Committee for the National Association of Regional Councils.

Mr. John Bosley is with me.

The National Association of Regional Councils feels that the LEAA program has actually worked quite well. However, we recognize the fact that there has been criticism that there is going to be a change in the program and that there is going to be a reduced level of funding. And we don't argue with that point.

We accept it. There are some major points that we would like to make. We urge that there be sufficient incentive for encouraging intergovernmental cooperation particularly with the metropolitan areas. And in this regard, we would suggest that there be a 10 percent bonus to the entitlement areas who would receive their money anyway in order to encourage them to cooperate and join with the adjoining

areas.

We have seen this work well in the CETA program and it has indeed accomplished regional cooperation and more than would have been accomplished by the entitlement areas on their own. And, therefore, we suggest that this be included in the program.

Then insofar as the nonmetropolitan areas or, as in particular as we call them, the rural area, an area such as I come from, we are pleased to support the popultion threshold of 100,000. That would definitely allow an area such as my home, the city of Victoria, which has approximately a population of 60,000, but the entire region we represent in our regional council has a total population of about 145,000. This sort of thing has worked exceedingly well for us. There is only one city and one county in our area that is large enough to train their own police officers.

Through the LEAA program we have been able to establish a police academy operated by the Police Department of the city of Victoria which has been highly effective in training the police officers of the

counties and cities in the entire region and getting them certified as such.

Mr. CONYERS. Are you in a miniblock situation now?

Mr. CARSNER. No, sir.

Mr. CONYERS. You get directly funded from the State?

Mr. CARSNER. From the State. We have what we call in Texas "balance of the State." It comes through the State and through the Criminal Justice Commission of the Governor's office, and that is how we get our money.

That's another point. The only other major point that I would like to make and perhaps this is intended, but I believe the bill is silent on this. We in no way criticize funding of citizens' groups or neighborhood groups, but we would strongly urge that you make certain that any grants to neighborhood groups or citizens' groups be subject to the 8395 review process.

As I say, I, in all probability, I believe this is intended, but I believe the bill is silent in that regard. We feel that any grant regardless of whom it is going to should be subject to the 8395 review.

Mr. CONYERS. Could you describe for the subcommittee and for the record what the crime problem is like in your area? What are you confronted with?

Mr. CARSNER. What are we confronted with? I suppose the major problem that we have down there is a drug problem in our area down there. In the nonmetropolitan area. That is the major problem we have. Mr. CONYERS. How long has that-drugs and their sale and distribution been a major problem?

Mr. CARSNER. I would say for at least the last 10, 15 years.

Mr. CONYERS. Is that because of your proximity to the Mexican border?

And what kind of drugs are we referring to?

Mr. CARSNER. Oh, marihuana, heroin.

Mr. CONYERS. The whole range?

Mr. CARSNER. That's right, the whole range, yes.

And I am glad to say that I feel that we are dealing with it very effectively down there through, in my own area, the city of Victoria, through our police department. We have been able to deal rather effectively with it.

Mr. CONYERS. How large is your police department?

Mr. CARSNER. We have about 50 total.

Mr. CONYERS. I am trying to get a feel for what the law enforcement problem is that the old stereotype of isolated rural Southwest towns of moonshining and bootlegging, those days I presume are over? Mr. CARSNER. That's right, yes, sir.

Mr. CONYERS. And we have graduated into hard drugs now?

Mr. CARSNER. That's right. And we are very proud of our police department. We think we have got one of the most sophisticated police departments for a city of that size, at least in the State of Texas, and we feel we are doing a good job, but, as you say, we have gotten away from that type of thing, the moonshining and that type of thing. Mr. CONYERS. That doesn't go on at all?

Mr. CARSNER. No, sir. We have almost become metropolitan in our approach to it.

Mr. CONYERS. What about the juvenile crime problem and how are your juvenile centers and your courts set up to operate? Is that working satisfactorily or does it have the usual problems?

Mr. CARSNER. Well, it is working satisfactorily, but we are a growing area and, of course, with growth, sort of comes an increase in all of these problems, but by and large we have been able to deal with the juvenile problem very well.

Mr. CONYERS. Counsel, do you choose to make any additional comments? Mr. Bosley?

Mr. BOSLEY. Only this, Mr. Chairman, I think some of the examples that we did not read into the record, but you will see when they go into the record, also indicate that in some of our smaller metropolitan, nonmetropolitan areas, as Mayor Carsner has indicated, there is emerging the same kind of problems with crime and the criminal justice system itself as we find in larger urban settings and the value of regional cooperation in those regions has largely come about through some of the incentives of these Federal programs under LEAA which has allowed communities to work together and achieve some activities that they couldn't independently do because of their size.

We mentioned, for example, a regional council in Pratt, Kans., which is a very small area which has established a juvenile center which attempts to provide an opportunity, an alternative to incarceration and give a greater degree of flexibility to the juvenile justice system in dealing with young people in their communities, so we do find around the country that problems may differ in magnitude, but they really are very similar in both rural and urban areas and, by working together, especially in those sparsely populated areas, we can really do many things that we would be incapable of trying to accomplish individually.

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. Mr. Volkmer?

Mr. VOLKMER. Yes, I would like to ask the mayor, Golden Crescent Council of Governments, how many counties?

Mr. CARSNER. Seven.

Mr. VOLKMER. What is your largest city?

Mr. CARSNER. Victoria.

Mr. VOLKMER. How many population?

Mr. CARSNER, 60,000.

Mr. VOLKMER. Where are you in relation to, say, El Paso?

Mr. CARSNER. Oh, we are over 500 miles from El Paso. Where we are is 25 miles from the coast, the Gulf of Mexico.

Mr. VOLKMER. Galveston?

Mr. CARSNER. No, we are almost equally distant between Houston and Corpus Christi; 25 miles from the coast.

Mr. VOLKMER. And you are right between those two?

Mr. CARSNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. VOLKMER. Now, I believe you say in here, "We believe that it is important to continue Federal efforts to aid State and local governments in their efforts to coordinate and manage their criminal justice resources."

My question to you is why?

Mr. CARSNER. Because it has been successful.

Mr. VOLKMER. LEAA has been successful?

Mr. CARSNER. In our area, yes, it has. Let me give you another example of what we have been able to do in our home area.

I talked about the police academy. The only city and county that is large enough in the seven-county area for a probation department is the city and county of Victoria. We have one, an efficient one.

The other counties do not have one. Through the LEAA program and through our regional council, we wereable to establish a tri-county probation department for three other counties in the area. But for the program they would not have a probation department at all.

Mr. VOLKMER. You mean the funds come from LEAA?

Mr. CARSNER. A portion of them did.

Mr. VOLKMER. You all have the police academy. Do you send any of your officers to the FBI academy?

Mr. CARSNER. Yes, sir. We have a high percentage of our local officers who have come to the FBI Academy.

Mr. VOLKMER. Would you be willing to send them if you had to pay the cost of transportation and, room and board?

Mr. CARSNER. We think highly enough of that that if we could afford to do it, yes, we would.

Mr. VOLKMER. I am on another subcommittee and I think that is probably what is going to happen.

Mr. CARSNER. It has been highly beneficial to us and, as we feel we have an effective police department, we think highly enough of it, that we would attempt to budget funds that would not otherwise be available.

Mr. VOLKMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CONYERS. Mayor Carsner, thank you for joining us this morning. We will consider your remarks carefully. Thank you. [The complete statement follows:]

STATEMENT OF CHARLES CARSNER, MAYOR, VICTORIA, TEX., ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COUNCILS

Mr. Chairman, I am Charles Carsner, Mayor of Victoria, Texas, member of the Golden Crescent Council of Governments, and Chairman of the Public Safety Policy Committee of the National Association of Regional Councils. I appreciate this opportunity to come before the Committee today to testify on H.R. 2108, the Criminal Justice Assistance Act of 1979.

The National Association of Regional Councils represents approximately 350 of the 600 existing regional councils currently in operation in the United States. Regional councils are public organizations encompassing a regional communityfounded, sustained and tied directly to local governments through local and/or state government actions. Through communication, planning, policy making, coordination and technical assistance, councils serve the local governments and citizens in a region by dealing with issues and needs which cross city, county and. in some instances, state boundaries. The basic responsibility of a regional council is to be an umbrella agency which provides comprehensive area wide policy planning, coordinates regional functional planning and operational agencies, and arranges for the implementation of regional policies.

NARC has a great interest in the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration program. Many of our members, both metropolitan and nonmetropolitan, are participants in the program, serving as regional planning units (RPUS). We believe that it is important to continue federal efforts to aid state and local governments in their efforts to coordinate and manage their criminal justice resources. We recognize, however, that both Congress and the Administration are apparently committed to significantly revising the LEAA program. This is in large part because of critical evaluation that the program has received since its inception. NARC does not necessarily share those critical views, but we are reconciled to a new thrust for the program.