MILITARY AND NAVAL INSURANCE.

(See p. 511.)

Mr. WOOD. You have an item here for military and naval insurance. $88,000,000, compared with $90,000,000.

Mr. HINES. That is to cover the amount made necessary to pay either total disability or death claims under the term charge.

Mr. WOOD. You made a very full statement about that this morning.

Mr. HINES. Yes, I did; and we will put into the record the additional data which the committee asked for.

Mr. Wood. The rest of the language in this item is stricken out. That is permanent law?

Mr. HINES. Yes, sir. There is no necessity for it in the bill.

It is rather startling when we look at that insurance proposition and consider $90,000,000 a year for about 17 years, with a liability right now of over a billion dollars on the books.

Mr. Wood. Yes; it is a startling proposition. I believe, if I understood you correctly this morning, that the Government is not reimbursed for any portion of this.

Mr. HINES. No, sir. Well, this is the difference between what we receive in premiums and what it costs us to pay claims.

Mr. WOOD. That is what I mean. So this is a total loss to the Government?

Mr. HINES. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. $88,000,000 this year?

Mr. HINES. Yes. When the Government goes into the insurance business it is an expensive proposition; but it is doing an immense amount of good. I think, of all the measures of relief, it is one of the best.

Mr. Wood. It would be a mighty good thing if the Government could take care of all of us; but it can not.

Mr. HINES. I hope before I appear before this committee again to have a very exhaustive study of that whole thing made, so that we will have some idea about the future of this insurance; about where it will lead, and about the cost.

Mr. Wood. I think that the best thing that could possibly be done, unless the Government is going into paternalism entirelyall kinds of insurance-is to get out of it entirely. It is not fair to the Government; it is not fair to all of our people for one class to be the recipients of its bounty and another class not to be recipientsexcept for military service, of course. But I am opposed to the Government going into any kind of business that any individual or corporation can do.

Mr. HINES. I have often thought of just how the Government could get out of this, but I have never been able to see any way to get out.

Mr. Wood. Somebody who is acquainted with this insurance business ought to be able to solve the problem, unless it is impossible; and then, of course, we will have to bear it. But we can do thiswe can keep from getting in any further.

Mr. HINES. Oh, yes. I doubt if any insurance company or any combination of insurance companies in the United States or the

world could afford to take over this insurance business; because, of course, in the first place, we take greater risks than any commercial company could afford to take, and the contracts which are now in existence the Government is morally bound to carry out, and they will soon determine, as we will, what that liability is.

Mr. Wood. I do not know myself of any way of getting rid of this. But it was advocated here for quite a little while, and some of your predecessors were strong for simply continuing this, and were sending out all sorts of propaganda-we shut it off in this committee-inviting all the world to take insurance with us.

Mr. HINES. Of course, the associations are very strong for that. At their conventions every year they pass resolutions urging that. Mr. WOOD. Of course.

Mr. HINES. But if they would take the other view and urge the converted insurance, which is self-sustaining, minus the administrative overhead, it would be much better. But this renewal of the term insurance, where the Government stands the losses that it does. stand it is asking a great deal to carry on a campaign to increase that obligation.

SALARIES.

(See p. 555.)

Mr. CARTER. General, on page 135, the administration item, where you have the number of employees sent out, I notice under the professional and scientific service you have, as I figure it, 168 persons, at from $3,000 to $7,500.

Mr. HINES. Yes, sir.

Mr. CARTER. Have you put in the record any specific statement as to the salaries of each.

Mr. HINES. We have that detailed, Mr. Carter.

(See detailed classification of salaries in the District of Columbia on p. 688.)

Statements showing in detail the field service are as follows:

$5,500-$5,000.

$5,000-$4,500.

$4,000-$4,000.

$4,000-$3,500.

$3,500-$3,000.

$3,000-$2,500.

$2,500-$2,000.

$2,000-$1,799.

Estimated personnel at United States veterans' hospitals, fiscal year 1925.