we can accomplish the purpose of this act, to give credit to England, without those powers?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Well, I imagine that that has been thought of before the proposition was put before you gentlemen. And, I am frank to say, that as far as I am concerned the only thing I am waiting for is tools to get under way. How they are going to be paid for I think is for you gentlemen to decide, and not me.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. I take it that without question you and your associates are doing everything possible to increase production not only for our own defense but to bring about aid to England.

Mr. KNUDSEN. But I want first of all to produce for our own defense.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. I understand. The mere passage of this bill is not going to increase the effectiveness of what you are doing now, is it?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I will have to take a vote on that.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Thank you, Mr. Knudsen.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through?

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Vorys.

Mr. VORYS. Mr. Knudsen, aside from the credit feature, does this bill give you any authority in your work that you do not now have and that you need?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I have not thought of that. My authority is entirely covered by this Executive order that was issued at the date of appointment, and I have not read the bill closely enough to find out.

Mr. VORYS. I will ask the question this way then: Are you conscious of any legal limitation on your present authority which is embarrassing or hampering to you in getting your own job done? Mr. KNUDSEN. No.

Mr. VORYS. That is, you have sufficient power now to coordinate the procurement of materials?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. And to make decisions with reference to priority? Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes. Of course, you understand, that we have only had this job since the 7th of January; this is the 17th. But, I have not found any limitation, as far as I am concerned.

I feel this concerns the procurement of this material, would be entirely in the hands of the Procurement Sections of the War and Navy Departments of the United States Government. Consequently it would be a great deal easier to handle than it was before when they were doing it with several separate British organizations and our own organization. In this case here it will all be handled through one office.

Mr. VORYS. Do you know whether this bill is needed-and I appręciate that these are more or less lawyers questions but I was wondering if you felt more legislation was needed than we now have in order to coordinate the procurement between our Government and say, the British Government?

Mr. KNUDSEN. In this particular case, in this instance, after the bill is signed, all procurement is combined. We take over the buying of all of this material for ourselves and Great Britain. They are now using a purchase program of their own today; the British organ

ization is buying separately through their own organization, and we are buying through ours.

Mr. VORYS. Under this bill the British would still be able to buy separately, so long as they bought for cash. Now would that be any embarrassment to you?

Mr. KNUDSEN. No, no; because the amount of material they buy along that line will be rather small; it would be special materials that we do not need for American arms. In other words, we have certain ammunition that is a little off size which they need for themselves, for what they have on the other side, and they could have what they pay for.

Mr. VORYS. They could have what they want to buy. The coordination, though, with the British is more a matter of mutual self-interest than a matter of legal compulsion, is it not?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I do not understand.

Mr. VORYS. You get coordination in working with the British because it is to their interest to coordinate in this country and it is to your interest, too. Is not that the way you get coordination in purchasing, or is there competition between the British purchasing and the American purchasing?

Mr. KNUDSEN. There is now; yes. In fact, they were in the market before we were; you remember that.

Mr. VORYS. I know that there has been. I wondered if that still continued.

Mr. KNUDSEN. Well, everything is stopped right now.

Mr. VORYS. Because they have ordered all that they have ready cash for? Is that right?

Mr. KNUDSEN. That is correct.

Mr. VORYS. You work with the British Purchasing Commission? Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. You are working on attempting to standardize-oh, airplanes?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Or parts, and everything you buy, is not that true? Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Everything you make?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. So that what is produced by way of war materials can be used either by us or by the British or by anybody else we want to have use it?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. In your judgment, is some change in the law or some additional law needed in order to secure coordination or cooperation? Mr. KNUDSEN. No, sir.

. Mr. VORYS. Working together?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I would not think so. But with this bill and the procurement coordinated, making it all American standard materials, the procurement problem becomes a great deal simpler.

Mr. VORYS. It becomes simpler because under this bill we turn over finished materials, that you procure; materials are turned over to any other country.

Mr. KNUDSEN. That is right.

Mr. VORYS. And, therefore, you talk it over, but they take what we give them?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Under any arrangement whereby they would be given additional credit, there might be a question as to whether they would take what we give them or go out and buy; is that a.possibility?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I can see a possibility there; yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Is that an important possibility? I do not know. I am asking for information.

Mr. KNUDSEN. As far as we are concerned here, I feel the combining of the purchases, of the procurement, is the most practical thing to do because it combines the plant facilities, and we have control over changes. I think the job can proceed better. In fact, I know it.

Mr. VORYS. Do the British feel the same way about it, or do you know?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I do not know. They are quite willing to cooperate in the standardization, wherever possible. Of course, you understand when they buy something over here, that they have to use in guns over there, that standardization will not do any good. If they buy the gun and the ammunition here, then it fits.

Mr. VORYS. You have got to have the calibers fit?

Mr. KNUDSEN. That is right.

Mr. VORYS. Whatever you buy here has got to fasten on to whatever they have over there?

Mr. KNUDSEN. That is correct.

Mr. VORYS. How does the O. P. M. work, not in any theoretical way, but how does it actually function?

Mr. KNUDSEN. You know the names of the four members of the board; the Secretary of the Navy, the Secretary of War, Mr. Hillman anw myself. We meet. I call a meeting whenever we have occasion. to talk things over and we decide on a policy. Then it is up to Mr. Hillman and me to carry it out. That is the way we function. Of course, you understand the organization is rather young. I think Mr. Hillman has been in the hospital for a couple of weeks and we are going to have a meeting on Tuesday. We have had two or three meetings before, but due to the fact that the board was not complete, we could only take such steps that were possible without Mr. Hillman being present.

Mr. VORYS. There are two heads to it, is that right?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. Have you ever worked in an organization that had two heads before?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Well, we had a chairman, where I was.

Mr. VORYS. Sometime last summer, I believe, you testified up here that it would be 1942 before we had complete equipment for 750,000 men; am I correct in my recollection?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I do not think that is quite correct, sir. The projects before us today provide for complete equipment for 1,200,000 men and of heavy items for 800,000 men additional. That is the number you have given us the money for.

Mr. VORYS. Complete equipment for 1,200,000?

Mr. KNUDSEN. That is right, and heavy equipment for 800,000 more. Mr. VORYS. And that is what we have already authorized and appropriated for?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Can you tell us when that will be ready?

Mr. KNUDSEN. The schedule date was set at July 1, 1942. We are a little delayed, and it will probably be at the end of 1942 before we will have it.

Mr. VORYS. Could you tell us what parts of the equipment will occasion the delay?

Mr. KNUDSEN. It is all in heavy equipment, sir.

Mr. VORYS. What do you mean by that?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I mean by that, powder and shells and machine guns and heavy guns. You see, we did not get started on July 1. You gave us the final appropriation on the 10th of September, and you remember the discussions we had, the negotiations, in order to get the plantamortization question settled. So we were a little delayed there. But we hope to make some of it up.

Mr. VORYS. Now, after you get appropriations and authorizations so you can start, you then have to arrange about tools and plants, and it still takes a good bit of time after that, does it not?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir; depending entirely on the article.

Mr. VORYS. Is there any general statement you can make so that we laymen can understand it, as to the sort of time it would take? That is, for instance, let us take an airplane. How long after you decide what airplane you want can you have it? That is, how long would it be between the time that you are authorized to get 100 airplanes before the first one comes off the line? Can you state that? Is that a fair question?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Can I ask you a question? Is this a new airplane that has to be made, and that has not been manufactured before, or are you referring to 100 airplanes of a type that is in the works? You are talking about an airplane. Is it a new airplane that has not been made before or is it an order of a hundred airplanes of a kind that we have in the works?

Mr. VORYS. In answer to you, let me ask this: Is it not true that every time you make a change in the design, that is a new airplane? Mr. KNUDSEN. Oh, no. It has been flown before. A change will not make it stay on the ground. But if you have a brand-new airplane that has never been flown before, it takes quite a long time to get the design worked out, because you have to build one plane or two planes or three planes first by hand before you put it on the tools, and that takes quite some time.

Mr. VORYS. Could you give us an idea of the time that it takes to get out a new design?

Mr. KNUDSEN. A brand-new one?

Mr. VORYS. Yes.

Mr. KNUDSEN. I would say 10 to 11 months.

Mr. VORYS. That is, from the time that you have completed the drawings, let us say, for the brand-new airplane?

Mr. KNUDSEN. "Drawings" is a big word, sir. We have a project drawing of the plane before we ask you for the money for it, but the shop drawings, the piece drawings, probably take some little time. You understand, a brand-new airplane is built in the experimental department. It is built by hand, and only after it has been tested and approved by the air force is it ready for quantity production, and then the jigs and the things still have to be made for it.

Mr. VORYS. Airplanes are not yet susceptible to line production the way automobiles are; is that true?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Oh, not on that scale; no. But we are getting gradu

ally to that.

Mr. VORYS. You still have to rivet the duralumin on it, do you not? Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. You have not found any way yet to press the wings or stamp them out?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Some progress is being made with spot welding, but not enough to say that we can get along without rivets.

Mr. VORYS. And rivets mean a tremendous amount of hand work? Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to object, but it strikes me that my friend is going pretty much into details on the construction of an airplane, that might not be necessary in the consideration of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will proceed in order.

Mr. VORYS. I am almost at the end here, Mr. Chairman. My only purpose was to ask Mr. Knudsen whether, because of this riveting, there is not an enormous amount of hand labor even on line production of airplanes?

Mr. KNUDSEN. In assembling, yes, sir; in the final assembly, yes, sir. Mr. VORYS. This bill says that the President may manufacture or otherwise procure any defense article notwithstanding the provisions of any law. Does "otherwise procure"--what is it intended to mean

there?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I imagine it means purchasing.

Mr. VORYS. I would think it would mean purchasing. Does it mean procure in any other way?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I do not know.

Mr. VORYS. You have supervision of Government arsenals and gun factories?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Through the Ordnance Department; surely.

Mr. VORYS. You work through the Procurement Departments of the Army and the Navy?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. Are you satisfied with the decentralized procurement arrangements in the Army?

Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. VORYS. And with the triple or quadruple Procurement Departments of the Navy? Do you feel that that is the best way to proceed? Mr. KNUDSEN. I do not understand what you mean by triple.

Mr. VORYS. We have the Bureau of Aeronautics, the Bureau of Ships, the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts, the Bureau of Ordnance? Mr. KNUDSEN. Yes.

Mr. VORYS. We have three or four different procurement branches of the Navy and about 600 in the Army.

Mr. KNUDSEN. They do not buy the same kind of goods; I think that is all right. I have had several departments of purchasing in my business, before I gave it up.

Mr. VORYS. So that the way it is done here is, in your opinion, a good way to do it?

Mr. KNUDSEN. I think it is quite all right.

Mr. VORYS. And it is satisfactory so far as you are concerned, as the co-chairman of the O. P. M.?