Mr. FISH. Has not the Italian Navy had pretty severe losses in the war?

Mr. KNOX. Yes; we are aware of those.

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Mr. FISH. Are not they continuing almost every week? Mr. KNOX. To some degree, although their fleet has held itself pretty close to its harbors, recently.

Mr. FISH. If a navy were to attack us across 3,000 miles of ocean, the Navy loses something like 20 percent of its efficiency over every thousand miles from its base?

Mr. KNOX. That is not the way the fight would begin.

Mr. FISH. I am not assuming we would go over there to fight them. I assumed from your argument we were apt to be attacked over here. Mr. KNOX. I make the assumption that no nation of this group might come across and attack us by sea at once. But that penetration will come in a different way.

Mr. FISH. Will you please explain what you mean by "at once"? Mr. KNOX. Well, as long as they can arm their forces and equip their ships and prepare them for the foray, I do not think they would make that kind of attack on us.

Mr. FISH. Will you proceed and state what kind of attack they will make on this country?

Mr. KNOX. I will be very glad to. Our responsibility for defense is not for our own territory alone. If we are to be safe here we have to make the whole western world safe, including South America. South. America today is the largest storehouse of raw materials left in the world. It is populated sparsely. None of its nations has an armament sufficient to protect itself against an aggressive nation of Europe. If Great Britain should fall and Germany should dominate the whole of the continent, she would have available a huge volume of poorly paid labor, and some of it slave labor, with which to manufacture articles that South America needs, perhaps at very low cost. South America has certain raw materials in excess of her needs and is looking for markets for them. Nothing could be more inevitable, economically, than such a building up of an economic relationship between the many nations of South America and the dominent power in Europe. The political situation in South America is not strong enough to defend itself against political infiltration. Generally speaking, those nations down there are made up of about 90 percent illiterate people who have been permitted no part in their government, or very little, and about 10 percent literate. In each of those nations there is always an active minority anxious to achieve power. It is impossible. to conceive of a more beautiful situation for just that kind of penetration that Germany has been practicing all over the world than would exist in South America. And it would not be long before some situa tion would be seized upon as an excuse for actual occupation of some of the weaker countries, and that would establish at once a German base on this side of the Atlantic.

Mr. FISH. Mr. Secretary, assuming as a hypothetical question that we are discussing, that England is beaten, is there any reason why Germany, as the dominant power, should seek war in South America if they are permitted to buy the foodstuffs like meat and wheat from the Argentine, and other materials?

Mr. KNOX. As you know, that is very speculative, and if you can

tell what is going on in Mr. Hitler's mind and what his ultimate purposes are, you are far wiser than I am.

Mr. FISH. I mean, I am following your question which was simply that they would want that raw material. Do you know, or is there any reason why they should not be permitted to buy that raw material? Mr. KNOX. Let me ask you a question, Mr. Congressman. Mr. FISH. You can ask me any question.

Mr. KNOX. I suggest as one of the possibilities with such an economical and political situation as I have described in South America, that it would ultimately lead to the seizure of territory in South America by Germany. What would you do under those conditions with the Monroe Doctrine?

Mr. FISH. I am very glad to answer that. You and I are in entire accord, but perhaps I feel it a little more strongly than you do. Mr. KNOX. What would you do?

Mr. FISH. I am going to tell you right away. I think we should be strong enough to serve notice on the rest of the world, particularly Germany, that we are united and that all parties are united and back of the Monroe Doctrine, and that we would go to war immediately over any invasion by any foreign foe of Latin America. Do you agree with that?

Mr. KNOX. I do, completely.

Mr. FISH. And if we serve that notice upon the rest of the world, I do not believe any of them are equipped with navies to come over here, particularly with this great Navy which you think is the best in the world. And I am glad to give you some information right now, Mr. Secretary, because the Rules Committee, within the hourand I am very glad to tell you-reported out the right-of-way for another $1,000,000,000 for your Navy, in addition, for the two-ocean Navy you are in the course of building. We propose to have that for that specific purpose, not only to protect the United States, but to uphold the Monroe Doctrine.

Mr. KNOX. Fine.

Mr. FISH. That is the purpose.

Mr. KNOX. One item that has been left out in your calculations is that if Germany does dominate Europe and achieves the defeat of the British Isles, she will have immediately available to her, shipbuilding facilities which will be seven times our present shipbuilding facilities.

Mr. FISH. I am glad to hear you say that, because that would mean, however that has been used so much in the press and there is no way of checking up on it-it would mean you take Germany or any other nation that had that capacity and it would take them some 5 or 6 years to build up their Navy, while we have already been proceeding in time of peace to build up this enormous Navy and we have appropriated another $1,000,000,000 today. And I rather believe it will take Germany, if she wins this war, some time to reorganize her own affairs and the conquered territories and Africa, without looking for trouble over here.

Now, Mr. Secretary, I would like to ask you about some possible amendments. Many of us would be glad to support this bill, if it were properly amended, and we would like naturally to get your views and your advice.

If any of our battleships and other naval vessels are given away or are transferred to a belligerent nation, would it not impair the efficiency of the Navy?

Mr. KNOX. It certainly would.

Mr. FISH. Would you object, therefore, Mr. Secretary, if we incorporate in this bill an amendment prohibiting the transfer or giving away of naval vessels?

Mr. KNOX. Certainly, and I would like to add an additional amendment, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. FISH. I would like you to do it.

Mr. KNOX. In view of what I regard as to the likelihood of anybody giving away our naval vessels, we might offer a suggestion that the president be prohibited from going down Pennsylvania Avenue standing on his head, and we know there is little likelihood of that. Mr. FISH. I will not argue these questions with you. I know you want to be helpful and that is not very helpful.

Mr. KNOX. Let me say something that will be more helpful. That is facetious, and I will admit it. I have been here for 6 months, and I have been thrown in the closest possible contact with the President in respect to naval affairs. In all my life I have never seen a man more devoted to the best and highest interests of the American Navy than Franklin D. Roosevelt. He knows more about the Navy than most of the officers in the Navy. It is the very apple of his eye. And the last thing that I can conceive of is that he could give away the American Navy.

Mr. FISH. Mr. Secretary, as long as you have raised that question, let us look at the record, as Al Smith used to say. Is it not a fact we have already exchanged 50 destroyers, and is it not a fact that there was an attempt made to transfer other boats of the Navy and it was stopped by the Congress of the United States and the chairman of the Military-or rather the chairman of the Naval Affairs Committee? Mr. KNOX. I am glad you asked that question, because the destroyer exchange, unquestionably, in the judgment of every professional sailor in the Navy, left us stronger after we had concluded it than before we had made it. The importance to us of the 8 bases in the Atlantic cannot be exaggerated. It moved our naval front line 500 miles farther eastward. The Navy, with those 8 bases, is stronger than it was with the 50 naval destroyers.

Mr. FISH. I will not get into any argument on that, because I am 100 percent for those bases. But I would go a little further. I want them outright. I would like to own them outright.

Mr. KNOX. You would like to own them outright?

Mr. FISH. And not for any temporary period of time, but forever; possibly not the islands, but the bases.

Mr. KNOX. Hah!

Mr. FISH. The bases.

Mr. Knox. I would go along with you, if you do not include the whole islands.

Mr. FISH. Now, Mr. Secretary, you yourself, therefore, would be opposed to either the transfer or the giving away of any part of our Navy?

Mr. KNOX. Of our present Navy?

Mr. FISH. That is what I want to know.

Mr. KNOX. Right.

Mr. FISH. You would therefore have no serious objection to such an amendment in the bill?

Mr. Knox. I do not think it is necessary.

Mr. FISH. You said that. I ask you if you have any objection. Maybe Mr. Roosevelt might not live forever. There might be another President. There might even be a Republican President.

Mr. KNOX. I hope so.

Mr. FISH. You might be President yourself. So this is for all time, as I understand it, this legislation, and you would have no objection, therefore, I gather?

Mr. Knox. I have made all the comment I wish to make on that, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. FISH. I have done the best I could to make you agree with me. Mr. Secretary, I have just a few more questions, as the others want to be heard.

But would you object if an amendment were written into the bill prohibiting any of your warships or any part of your great Navy convoying American ships into the war zone?

Mr. KNOX. I would be very much opposed to it.

Mr. FISH. Opposed to the amendment?

Mr. KNOX. It ties our hands. We cannot foresee what the future will bring.

Mr. FISH. Now, Mr. Secretary, would you be opposed to an amendment in the bill that would prohibit your warships, or our warships

Mr. KNOX. I would prefer that you use the latter.

Mr. FISH (continuing). Convoying British belligerents or foreign merchant ships into the war zone?

Mr. KNOX. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FISH. Convoying by our own ships the British ships?
Mr. KNOX. Let me put it this

way

Mr. FISH. I am putting the question and you can answer it in any way that you please.

Mr. KNOX. That is fine. I am opposed to tying our hands in any particular, until we know the actual conditions which we have got to meet. I think we have made a number of serious errors, in my judgment, in that very direction.

Mr. FISH. Now, Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you one more question. I would like to pursue this line of thought, but your time is valuable and the others want to ask questions. But the Secretary of War, who just concluded his testimony, made the statement that there probably would be a crisis in Great Britain within the next 60 or 90 days. Do you agree with that?

Mr. KNOX. I do.

Mr. FISH. And I think the Secretary of State made some similar statement before, when he came here. How would this bill, as far as production is concerned, affect that crisis in Great Britain within. the next 60 or 90 days by the passage of this bill? I would like to hear, as far as production is concerned.

Mr. KNOX. Tremendously, because you do not fight battles alone. with guns and ships. You fight with men. The spirit of those men is all-important. You have seen an illustration of that by one of the members of the Axis group trying to fight in the Mediterranean, and one reason why they are putting up such a rotten show is because their

morale is shot. The question of morale is an immensely important factor in war. And the passage of this bill will do more to put resolute courage and determination to fight through in the British Nation than anything we could do.

Mr. FISH. But it would not put a single ounce of war material in the hands of Great Britain within the next 60 or 90 days?

Mr. KNOX. I am not so sure about that. I would have to get the details before I could answer accurately. We are now producing a tremendous amount of goods for Great Britain, and they would get them as they needed it without any delay or hindrance. I think possibly it might accelerate the movement of materials.

Mr. FISH. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Eaton?

Mr. EATON. This is not the first time that I have had an opportunity of interrogating our distinguished witness. I have just one or two very brief questions, Mr. Secretary.

Is it your seasoned judgment that we are confronting a grave issue affecting the whole world, namely, shall the world be dominated by the ideals of freemen and the institutions growing out of those ideals, or shall it be dominated by the ideals of despotism and slave institutions growing out of those ideals? Is that the issue confronting us today?

Mr. KNOX. You have very well described, it, I think, Doctor.

Mr. EATON. Then, is it, in your judgment, helpful for us to implement our part in that conflict by putting this bill through as it is! Mr. KNOX. Yes; that is my judgment. Yes, sir.

Mr. EATON. And you do not want any amendments?

Mr. KNOX. No, sir.

Mr. EATON. How about a 2-year time limit on it?

Mr. KNOX. I have no objection to that.

Mr. EATON. Under the Constitution we cannot appropriate money for the armed services for longer than 2 years. Will you be willing to have that time limit?

Mr. KNOX. I have no objection to it; no, sir.

Mr. EATON. Will you have any objections to limitation on the gift of power to the President?

Mr. KNOX. No; I think if you did that you would be pretty sure to slow it down. That is the thing to be avoided at all cost.

Mr. EATON. You think as long as he keeps such competent advisers

as he has around him he will be all right?

Mr. KNOX. Modesty forbids that I answer that question.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tinkham?

Mr. TINKHAM. Mr. Secretary?

Mr. KNOX. Mr. Tinkham?

Mr. TINKHAM. You wrote or had printed in the Atlantic Monthly some little while ago—

Mr. KNOX. You are going to confront me with some of my own compositions?

Mr. TINKHAM. I certainly am. I think it will be of some confusion to you.

Mr. KNOX. Well, let us find out.

Mr. TINKHAM. And I will not be displeased.

Mr. KNOX. You heard about that old adage, "Would that my enemy would write a book"?