Mr. SARASIN. But now, Dr. Verhoven and Ms. Williams feel very strongly, at least as I take their testimony, that, in fact, this legislation is good legislation and the Government should be involved in the manner prescribed in the proposed act.

But I am not sure that is your conclusion.

Dr. Cook. I am not running for office and, therefore, I do not really have to take a position as Mr. Daniels and perhaps you do on that. I am not really trying to avoid this. I really feel unqualified to answer that particular question.

Let me say, if you were going to have Federal legislation, I would assume that the best kind of legislation to have would be the kind that you are proposing, aid to States, and we would suggest that as Dr. Kirk and the National Safety Council did yesterday, for example, that there be provision for education. We would go further and suggest that aid for education should be directed to camp operators and directed to counselors, training counselors, but I really feel unqualified to give a confident judgment, one that is based on professional qualifications on the role of the Federal Gov

ernment.

Mr. SARASIN. The legislation proposed would provide for minimum safeguards and yet in your conclusion, you are saying that if the Federal Government became involved, the answer would be "no, we would not see a significant reduction in illness and injuries"?

Dr. Cook. Yes, I believe that in terms of percentages, you already have a fairly decent kind of picture and, therefore, any improvement can only be a very small one over that. You know, it is essentially, if you start at 98 percent of perfection, then, you can only get up 2 more percent.

Mr. SARASIN. As I understand Congressman Peyser's questions earlier to the gentleman from HEW, using your report, he pointed out many areas and very high percentages of failures of what I would think to be sensible standards.

Say, drivers license for someone who drives campers around or the ability to keep swimming if you are running a swimming course in a pool. Are you saying that if we brought everyone up to standard, that we would not see a significant decrease in injuries and illnesses?

Dr. Cook. This is purely an opinion statement but I think that would be correct. You know, the key word is "significant." If you want to save one life and you consider that significant, then, my answer might be one thing but in terms of the average rate, I do not really see that you can and in terms of percentages of improvements, I do not see that much can be done.

Now, as was pointed out in our report, if you have-well, there is a problem dealing with averages when you talk safety. Mr. SARASIN. Let's be specific, then.

Dr. Cook. If you want to talk about extremes, you know, we can talk all you want to about the fact that the camp has a good operation but if there is a bad operator out there supplying lifeguards at the water front, that would be a situation you would want to remedy. That is an extreme situation you want to be concerned about.

Mr. SARASIN. Not having the benefit of reading your report, do you investigate the accidents and injuries that are cited in that report? In other words, are you making any determination in the period of your study as to negligence or improper safeguards and that sort of thing, in your report?

Dr. Cook. Not very much in the report. The injury and illness forms both which were supplied by Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, both asked whether the camper was involved or the camper involved in an accident was violating a camp rule.

It asks whether the supervisors present were perhaps violating camp rules and it asks the person filling out the form whether this accident was a preventable accident.

I do not really recall how much of that I deal with in writing of the report.

Mr. SARASIN. Are the results of that information available in your report?

Dr. Cook. Yes, sir, I believe they are. Certainly the preventable one is. There really was not much in the way of people that have violations of camp rules, were involved and when there were violations of camp rules, it was things like the child was running and we have a rule against running.

I do not honestly remember what kind of discussion I had in the report but that was in the form and I think I discussed it in the report.

Mr. SARASIN. Thank you, Doctor.

Ms. Williams, the "Summary Matrix" as you report it, and I am not sure I know what "Summary Matrix" is and maybe you can help me, is confusing to me, and I wonder if you can help me to understand.

For example, looking at Connecticut, my own State, it has for camp personnel, the number "20" and maximum score possible is "24." Can you tell me what it means?

Ms. WILLIAMS. That was arrived at. There were six categories identified by the panel, that is, the one convened by the Recreation Park Association and of those six various things such as age of director, age of counselor, training for their job, such things as . that, I gave each one arbitrarily four points maximum for each of those subcategories.

The total of 4 times 6 equals 24. That is how the number was arrived at. Connecticut, in that score, has a score of 20 which is quite high for-well, it is almost a total score for the camp personnel.

Mr. SARASIN. Does that mean within the regulation or statutes in the State of Connecticut there is one element or one requirement missing from your list of six requirements?

MS. WILLIAMS. Either that or there might be one in three or four. It is a points score total of 24 and maybe it did not measure up in one area, say by one point and in another one by one point. There is in the report, which you should have a copy of, a complete outline of each one of these categories and that is why it is labeled "Summary" so you can check on each one.

It happens that references required is the only one they did not get a score on for Connecticut and in that item, that took them down four points which is a rather nominal requirement.

Mr. SARASIN. But that is explained or expanded in your full report?

MS. WILLIAMS. Yes, it is. Dr. Verhoven, you said in your statement this morning on page 3, the more important question is "how many of the injuries and illnesses and deaths could have been prevented with safety regulation and enforcement?" and this question is not satisfactorily answered by the study.

Mr. SARASIN. Are you referring now to the total study?

Dr. VERHOVEN. Yes, not only the 16-page summary but as Dr. Cook pointed out, there were very few cause-and-effect relationships established between the environmental situation or leadership available or whether or not an injury or illness was preventable in the data he collected.

Mr. SARASIN. Is that a failure of the study, not to have collected this cause-and-effect relationship, not to have provided information— when the first mandate began "to determine the extent of preventable accidents and illnesses" and I assume we are going to see accidents and illnesses in camps as everywhere else and there is no way to prevent them all.

But the Congress asked the question: what is the extent of preventable accidents? I would think that would be addressed, as it is 1 of 35, and obviously a very important aspect of the entire study. You did not handle the fifth one. I do not think the first one is more than cursorily examined.

Dr. Verhoven, your statement seems to very strongly endorse Federal involvement in this area, in the area that the members of the committee have discussed, as you have listened to our questions of other witnesses-I get the impression as I read this, you really feel strongly the Federal Government has an important role here and we are perhaps the only agency that can answer the need that exists. Dr. VERHOVEN. We do believe that, yes.

Mr. SARASIN. Were these recommendations included as part of your report?

Dr. VERHOVEN. The report that we submitted to Century Research Corp.?

Mr. SARASIN. Yes.

Dr. VERHOVEN. No.

Mr. SARASIN. Were they alluded to in any manner or were they ignored just because you were not asked the question?

Dr. VERHOVEN. I would have to say the latter.

Mr. SARASIN. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. On behalf of the committee, I thank the entire panel for your testimony here today.

With this, we conclude these hearings.

[Whereupon, at 1:40 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned.]

[The following material was submitted for the record:]

Representative DOMINICK V. DANIELS,

The House of Representatives,

Rayburn Building,

Washington, D.C.

LA JOLLA, CALIF., October 31, 1973.

DEAR REPRESENTATIVE DANIELS: I have read your bill H.R. 1486, and wholeheartedly agree with its purpose and scope.

This past summer, my daughter had the unfortunate experience of attending camp Ecole' Champlain in Vermont, which had unsafe facilities and unskilled counselors in water skiing and horseback riding as well as unsanitary health conditions. (Excrement from toilets was emptied into the lake used for swimming.)

After nine days at camp, my daughter became ill and fortunately Mrs. Schwartz was able to remove her from camp, and she spent her summer recuperating.

My main concern now is to prevent this woman, who is a menace to young children, from continuing her operation of this camp. Many parents who do not visit the camp are, unknowingly, sending their children without realizing the conditions.

I now must sue the owner, Mrs. Alice Chase Schaetz, for the return of part of my money and breach of contract with false advertising used in her camp brochures.

I felt that if you needed any ammunition to back up your arguments for the passage of H.R. 1486, I would be glad to elaborate even further on the camp's conditions.

If you need any further information, please don't hesitate to contact me. Very truly yours,

MELVIN M. SCHWARTZ. CAMP FIRE GIRLS, INC., New York, N.Y.

POSITION STATEMENT-YOUTH CAMP SAFETY ACT

Camp Fire Girls, Inc., consistent with its 63 years of conscious concern and action on behalf of youth, supports the intent of the Federal Youth Camp Safety Act.

Camp Fire Girls, Inc., consistent with its position of active involvement in the professional camping community, supports the position of the American Camping Association on the Youth Camp Safety Act and the ACA recommendations for implementation of this Act. We urge that the resources of the professional camping community be used in establishing minimum youth camp safety standards and in implementation of such standards.

CAMP FIRE AND CAMPERS' SAFETY

Camp Fire Girls, Inc. was founded in 1910 in the camping setting. The founder, Dr. Luther Halsey Gulick, believed that the camping experience was an extraordinary opportunity to influence the lives of girls for the future.

That position and conviction is reflected today in the nearly 400 day camps and 200 resident camps operated by chartered councils of Camp Fire Girls, Inc., encompassing 25,000 communities throughout the United States. Nearly a quar ter million girls camped in 1973.

Camp Fire Girls, Inc. in providing a charter for local units, provides that charter and right to operate with the understanding that all camps and camping programs will be operated consistent with Day, Resident and Group Camping Standards of Camp Fire Girls, Inc. (see attached). These standards specifically address themselves to the welfare of campers in areas of Administration, Personnel, Program, Sanitation, Health, Safety, Sites, Facilities and Equipment. Through its professional training for camp directors and in workshops for boards of directors and camping committees, the Camp Fire Girls standards are reinforced and interpreted.

Local boards and staff are responsible for the implementation of these standards in their camps. In each and every instance of camping and outdoor activity, safety standards are an integral part of the training and education of the adults and girls involved in the programs.

Because the philosophy of Camp Fire Girls' camping is child-centered rather than activity-centered, we believe that our organization evidences in its safety practices a regard for the well being of children unparalleled in the field. We are not only concerned with health, safety and sanitation, but with the atmosphere of living that evidences concern for people. In such an environment, safety of a physical kind is inherent.

CAMPING AND LEGISLATION

Our support for camp safety legislation reffects our concern for all children in all camps whatever persuasion and leadership.

But our concern is for reasonable legislation which reflects the nature and conditions which make the camping experience extraordinary-legislation which is developed by and implemented by law-makers and their colleagues who have an understanding of the very nature of the outdoor experience.

If camping is to become legislated in such a way that it is no longer camping, then such legislation is not in the best interest of children and youth. Camp Fire Girls believes that camping can be legislated in such a way as to protect those youth participating while at the same time encouraging the type of educational outdoor experience as identified in Camp Fire Philosophy of Camping (see attached).

Camp Fire Girls, Inc. offers its resources in the continuing effort to develop and implement effective Federal Youth Camp Safety legislation.

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MRS. FRITZ R. KAHN, CHAIRMAN, LEGISLATIVE SERVICE COMMITTEE, NATIONAL CONGRESS OF PARENTS AND TEACHERS

For the last 77 years, the National Congress of Parents and Teachers, an organization of more than 7 million members with a branch in every state, has placd safety of children among its top priorities. From the early years of the organization, when we were in the forefront of those working for state and federal standards to protect children from working in hazardous occupations, to recent years when we worked to ensure that young children's sleepwear be available in non-flammable fabrics, we have directed our efforts on behalf of children. Through education, legislation, and publicity, we continue to make constant progress in developing a safe environment in which children can grow and mature. As parents, we want such safety to be attainable, not by limiting our children's growing experiences, but by developing standards and safeguards which permit such experiences to take place within a non-threatening atmosphere.

HR 1486, the Youth Camp Safety Act, receives our support because it proposes such standards. For most children, a camping experience is a time of exciting exposure to new stimuli; a time for the development of technical skills and personal independence; and a time to acquire lifelong respect for our environment. But surely no one believes that parents intend to purchase these valuable attributes at the price of injury or death to their children. And yet, the statistics are alarming: More than 25,000 children are involved in serious camping accidents each year, and close to 100 deaths result; although some states have begun to develop safety standards, 19 states have no camping safety regulations at all, and 40 states have no standards dealing with age or training of counselors or enforcement of existing standards by means of safety inspections. One need only look at the condition of some of the buses which serve camps or inquire about the training which their drivers have received to see that the safety standards for both are in sharp contrast to the safety requirements that school systems and parents demand of school bus vehicles and drivers.

The difference is that parents have constant physical proximity to schools, and safety hazards to children there are clearly visible and within their power to correct. When children are sent to distant camps, parents must rely on the good name or reputation of a camp. Since safety for children at camp does not benefit from personal parental surveillance, legislation must provide the extension of parental concern. Parents want to be assured that camps are required to address such basic matters as protection against fire and water hazards; adequate sanitation; training and experience for the adults who transport children or supervise their activities; safe physical facilities; and proper instruction and supervision of children in hazardous activities.