in view of your 18 years of experience with camps, what would be your recommendation with regard to this legislation?

MS. WILLIAMS. I read the legislation and read the hearings and I have studied the statements and I would think that Federal legislation certainly is in line and there should be Federal legislation for standardization of the regulations throughout the Nation.

Mr. DANIELS. Was such a recommendation included in your report?

Ms. WILLIAMS. No, sir, it was not. I think my agreement with Federal legislation is also contingent on the facts I brought out with regard to travel camps.

Mr. DANIELS. Dr. Verhoven, I compliment you for your statement there because the testimony you have given here is more in line with my view.

Dr. VERHOVEN. I accept the compliment.

Mr. DANIELS. Have the views that you expressed here today, were they incorporated in your report to the Century Corp.?

Dr. VERHOVEN. No, they were not.

Mr. DANIELS. Why the secret?

Dr. VERHOVEN. It was not a matter of secrecy. We were responsible for three specific objectives in meeting the requirements of the report.

Mr. DANIELS. In other words, it was unnecessary, then, for you to express an opinion along this line?

Dr. VERHOVEN. I would say it was unnecessary, yes.

Mr. DANIELS. But are the views you expressed here today not only the views of your organization but your personal views?

Dr. VERHOVEN. They are, sir.

Mr. DANIELS. Do we have anything in your statement with regard to your background which would show that you have knowledge of camp life and camp safety?

Dr. VERHOVEN. There is nothing in my statement. I am a researcher, a professional park and recreation educator, and former practitioner, and through any formal higher education, I did have considerable camping experience and camping courses, if that would be a qualification.

Mr. DANIELS. Doctor Cook, coming back to you, of course, I want to ask you a question with regard to the report.

I want to get something clear in my own mind. Are you acquainted with the report made by-well, there is a summary of the report made by HEW?

Dr. Cook. Yes, I am acquainted.

Mr. DANIELS. There is a section entitled "Task III," which existing State and local laws adequately deal with the safety of campers in youth camps. It makes reference to a jury. What you you mean by that word "jury"?

There is no explanation of what the jury consists of. By that, do they mean a panel of consultants, experts on youth camping, which was appointed to make recommendations that are contained in this report?

Dr. Cook. Is this the section on task III?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, task III.

Dr. Cook. That was Dr. Verhoven's.

Mr. DANIELS. What do you mean there by the word "jury"? That word threw me off.

Dr. VERHOVEN. I guess it is a commonly used word. To describe it as a jury, it would be a panel of experts, those people having been chosen for their direct involvement in camping or representative of the camping organizations, both public and private, in this country.

I might say that amongst the members of that jury of experts was included Dr. John Kirk, who testified here yesterday.

Mr. DANIELS. On page 10 of that report captioned "Methods" and it reads as follows:

State laws and regulations directly and indirectly applicable to summer youth camps were collected from 50 States. A panel of Consultants, experts on youth camping, was convened to recommend the categories of law and regulations, and so forth.

That panel of consultants, is that what you meant by "jury"?
Dr. VERHOVEN. That is correct.

Mr. DANIELS. The lady alongside of you shakes her head and says “no.”

Dr. VERHOVEN. I think there is some confusion here and I do not even know if I am not still a bit confused.

The jury, or panel, of experts that was referenced here on page 10 with regard to task III was a panel called together by the National Recreation and Park Association to deal with one of the objectives which referred to determination of the adequacy of State laws.

Mr. DANIELS. If you go to page 11, it goes on to say, "The jury expressed the following opinion."

Dr .VERHOVEN. Now, we are shifting to the other jury.
Mr. DANIELS. It says the following:

There should be direct or enabling State legislation that either controls the operation of camps or permits the promulgation of regulations that have the effect of law.

There should be an annual license, permit or registration for camps. There should be an annual inspection of camps. The jurors generally favored an inspection each time the camp is used by a different representative operator during camping season. The jurors were generally opposed to charging license or inspection fees.

It goes on to make certain other recommendations.

What I would like to know, so I have it clarified in my mind, is what did you mean by using the term "jury"? It was stated this is a panel of experts and you shook your head when he gave that reply, that that was not the correct answer?

MS. WILLIAMS. That is correct. There are two groups. The panel that was convened in summer of 1973 by the National Recreation and Park Association and later in the year when Cordura was contracted to assess the regulations, I tried to get a weighted system from the American Camping Association. That was not available outside of the organization to weight the different regulations.

So, in an effort to do this, I assembled from national organizations a list of some 39 jury members and there is a list in the report from Cordura in the Appendix of the people included in that.

Dr. Kirk, again, was a member of that. All of the panel members were asked to take part in that jury. The jury's job was to range from, in order.of importance, 109 regulations within each category. Mr. DANIELS. In other words, this jury consisted of 39 representatives of the different organizations in the camping field?

MS. WILLIAMS. Yes. Many of the national organizations, these were their top camping people they recommended.

to.

Mr. DANIELS. I just want to get that clear, what you had reference

MS. WILLIAMS. That was a jury which is different from the panel that was assembled in the summer. The jury was assembled in an attempt to put a range of importance on the various regulations suggested by the panel.

Mr. DANIELS. So, this jury, as you relate it now to the committee, consisted of 39 representatives of organizations which are active in the camping field?

Ms. WILLIAMS. There are actually between, take people who responded and made up the group, 20 persons, 39 contacted, and 20 Mr. DANIELS. Just one further question.

Dr. Cook, you heard the two previous witnesses, both of whom recommended that the Federal Government should enact legislation in this area, that they feel it would be better for the Federal Government to do so now to encourage the States to participate and adopt their own programs.

In other words, both of these witnesses have endorsed the legislation under consideration, H.R. 1486.

My question to you, sir, is this: What is your opinion on it?

Dr. Cook. The recommendation with regard to whether there should be Federal legislation was the fifth Task that was commissioned or directed by Congress. The reason that Dr. Verhoven's report did not include it, it was reserved to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, that particular recommendation, so if I give you an opinion, it is essentially an uninformed opinion. Mr. DANIELS. Give me your opinion. I want your expression of opinion on behalf of Century Research Corp. who was paid $187,542 to make a survey here, to make a study, and I think you should have some opinion, because after all, as it was pointed out today, it was paid, $8,000 for inspection and survey of each camp, so you should have an opinion and I asked for it individually.

Dr. Cook. Let me read the summary.

Mr. DANIELS. I do not want to put you on the spot with HEW. Dr. Cook. Pardon me?

Mr. DANIELS. Will answering that question put you on the spot insofar as HEW is concerned in the future?

Mr. Cook. I am not sure. Really, being an independent research company, we do not really have anything to gain or lose in this particular matter.

Mr. DANIELS. I take it you are a reputable company and want to make an honest report and all I am asking you for is an honest opinion.

Dr. Cook. But I was not contracted to do this particular task and essentially, I am not qualified to do it.

Mr. DANIELS. Don't you have an opinion? You know, I would not get reelected to office if I answered a constituent that way.

Dr. Cook. Let me give you our summary statement. We believe that the findings of the Century Research Corp. report can be interpreted either for or against Federal relation of youth camp safety.

In part, it depends upon the question asked. When one asks whether State and local laws regulating camp health and safety are adequate and enforced, the answer must be a firm "no" because they are frequently lacking enforcement or do not exist.

However, when one asks whether Federal legislation would significantly reduce the frequency and severity of camp injuries or illnesses, then, the answer also seems to be "no" because responsible organizations for years have been improving their own rules and regulations to protect the health.

Mr. DANIELS. But they have not improved sufficiently enough. How do you account, based on your report, estimates, that there are at least 50 lives lost a year?

Dr. Cook. Not so.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes. It was given.

Dr. Cook. Pardon me, not our report, no, sir.

Mr. DANIELS. All right, the Department's report based on its

own survey.

Dr. Cook. That was 25.

Mr. DANIELS. Twenty-five, but they upped it, saying when they considered all factors to say a fair guess or honest guess on their part was 50. So, I do not care if it is 25 or 50, I think if it is 50 or 25 lives, it is lives unnecessarily lost.

Likewise, with regard to accidents and illnesses. If we can cut down substantially on the number of accidents and children becoming ill, I think that it would be admirable and that would be a fine achievement.

If this can be accomplished better, all I simply say is, in other words, can this be accomplished in a better fashion by the Federal Government exercising a role here or by leaving it entirely to the States whether they desire to or not desire to enact legislation?

Dr. Cook. Let me answer from my experience in safety research that it is extremely difficult to sell safety. You almost cannot do it. Mr. DANIELS. Like the Congress in 1970 in connection with the Occupational Health and Safety law?

Dr. Cook. Right, that is my point.

Mr. DANIELS. Let me continue one step further.

Is not it ironic that the Occupational Health and Safety law shall be applicable to the personnel in the camp but there is no legislation to protect the health and safety of the campers and you have 10 million of them a year?

Dr. Cook. Yes. The fact that they are not covered by legislation does not mean they are unprotected.

Mr. DANIELS. You have personnel in the camp covered by safety legislation but the campers-"no, we do not care about them, we will disregard them."

That would be the implication I would draw from this report. Dr. Cook. From the report of HEW?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, HEW's report.

Dr. Cook. I think they testified otherwise, but that is your opinion. Mr. DANIELS. I won't impose on you any further.

I do not want to prolong it. My colleague from Connecticut, Mr. Sarasin, do you desire to interrogate on these matters?

Mr. SARASIN. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask a question of Dr. Cook.

As I understand it from earlier comments, you apparently said you were not charged to answer the fifth question that the Congress asked of HEW and that is, the need for Federal laws in this field? Dr. Cook. Yes, sir.

Mr. SARASIN. So that would leave it to HEW to make a determination after they pulled together your information?

Dr. Cook. Yes.

Mr. SARASIN. Your information was, then, based on your own studies and studies of the National Recreation & Park Association and Cordura Corp.?

Dr. Cooк. No, we had nothing to do with the Cordura contract directly. We had input and we talked to one another during the course of the studies but they were a separate contract.

Mr. SARASIN. Because we were never given the full report. I am a little bit confused and perhaps you can help me.

Is the full report, a big document which few people have, a compilation of your report and everyone else's report?

Dr. Cook. No, it is a compilation of our report and the National Recreation & Park Association's.

Mr. SARASIN. That is all that is in that document?

Dr. Cook. Yes.

Mr. SARASIN. There is another report from the Cordura Corp.? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. SARASIN. May I ask, then, who is charged with the first mandate of the Congress, that is, to determine the extent of preventable accidents and illnesses currently occurring in youth camps throughout the Nation?

Ms. WILLIAMS. Century Research Corp. contract. I am sorry. There were other inputs to that but that was our input, our input was primarily to that task.

Mr. SARASIN. OK. In the summary prepared by HEW, that charge, of course, is one of the things I suppose they should be answering in their summary and on page 15, Item 3, in answer to the question of "what is the extent of preventable accidents and illness?" they say:

Undoubtedly, some of the severe injuries and illnesses and deaths noted above were preventable.

That seems like an illogical answer to one of five questions asked by the Congress of the United States.

"Undoubtedly, some accidents and illnesses were preventable." I do not see anything else in here to answer that one mandate or that one question of Congress and I find it very disappointing.

Do I understand, then, that the information given you by Dr. Verhoven did not recommend one way or the other with respect to Federal involvement?

Dr. Cook. I believe he has so testified and I cannot remember anything in the report that would indicate otherwise.