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Mr. PEYSER. Let me rephrase it and say what would be the ratio of young people swimming and is there any regulation that you have dealing with the number of lifeguards as against the number of people involved? In other words, I have visited a camp where there were 75 children involved in a swimming, not in a program, in what they call free swimming, a free swimming period with one lifeguard on duty and this was in a lake area.

Now, the question is whether one lifeguard can sort of keep his eye on a free swimming area of all swimmers. In other words, what do you have as a guide that provides, say, the number of lifeguards?

Mr. REID. I would feel that one lifeguard to 25 people would be a good standard to follow.

Mr. PEYSER. Is this a standard that is basically sort of adhered to within your own camping regulations?

Mr. REID. Yes.
Mr. PEYSER. These, then, are qualified lifeguards?

Mr. Reid. Yes. The lifeguards must have a Red Cross card. But in addition, as I stated, we have given these people our own test before they are permitted to stay in the camp and work as a guard.

Mr. CASTRO. Excuse me. We have one advantage in that our swimming areas are clearly outlined and delineated so it is easy for the lifeguard to keep all of his swimmers under observation at one time.

Mr. PEYSER. From your experience in camping would you say that in a free swimming area, particularly, say, in lake swimming, that the ratio of lifeguard to swimmers, one to 25 would be a reasonable ratio?

Mr. CASTRO. I would think so.
Mr. PEYSER. Would you think one to 75 would be unreasonable?

Mr. CASTRO. I am not sure that it would be unreasonable. Let me say in the case of our beaches where we have many thousands of people we spot our lifeguard chairs 100 feet apart and there will be many occasions when a lifeguard will have more than 75 people under observation at one time.

Mr. PEYSER. That is true. I guess what I am talking about is the children's camp situation. .

Mr. CASTRO. I think 75 would be too many for one lifeguard.

Mr. PEYSER. That is what I am really dealing with, that kind of a situation.

Now, a practice, and now I am calling really more on your general camping knowledge and background rather than what specifically happens in your very well structured and organized program, but are you familiar with the practice at all, when a large number of children are coming in, of having a counselor who is not necessarily a lifeguard at all and has no particular qualifications or Red Cross card, who will, because of the numbers, he stands sort of with the lifeguard? In other words, there is a lifeguard, and the counselor of this group is there and the camp says, “Well, we have two people on duty.”

Mr. Castro. He should be qualified, too.

Mr. PEYSER. In other words, your feeling is that every person who is in any kind of a category supervising at a swimming area should be a qualified lifeguard?

Mr. CASTRO. Absoluutely. It should not be compromised.

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes.
Mr. DANIELS. In what capacity ?

Mr. KRIEGER. I am in charge of the waiters and I run the dining hall.

Mr. DANIELS. You do not officially supervise the children?

Mr. KRIEGER. In past years I supervised the children. First of all, the waiters are considered children, they are considered campers. Our staff doesn't start until they are 17 years old.

Mr. DANIELS. All right, you are free to testify.
Mr. KRIEGER. Thank you.

Concerning a couple of points. First of all, Camp Monroe, along with any other highly respected camp, would welcome any legislation, either State or Federal, that would put an end to any camps that aren't properly run, that aren't properly supervised, that aren't properly controlled. However, a lot of the legislation which was passed in New York State, some of the effects could be so financially burdensome that a lot of camps could be driven out of business.

Camping, whether it is private or public, provides a public service. Most of our campers come from the New York City metropolitan area. It gives them a chance to get away from the city and it gives them a chance to get out in the country.

Some of the laws that I am speaking of are, for example, the fire extinguisher laws. We have a lot of bunks. We have 40 bunks, and we were to place a fire extinguisher in each bunk, then that in itself will present a tremendous financial burden. The extinguishers go for about $200 a piece.

But more important than that, the extinguishers being in the bunks themselves provide a danger when you have these type of extinguishers that the kids can get to easily, that they can play with, that they can shoot off as a giant water gun. They can cause danger to themselves.

Mr. PEYSER. Excuse me. What is a bunk?

Mr. KRIEGER. A bunk is a building housing between 10 and 15 people in our case.

Mr. DANIELS. It is a dormitory, isn't it?

Mr. KRIEGER. Well, it is not a dormitory. A dormitory would be a larger facility. A dormitory would be maybe 50 to 200 people.

Mr. DANIELS. What is the bunk used for, for sleeping purposes only? Nr. KRIEGER. For sleeping purposes.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, did you hear the testimony this morning of Mr. Gates?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes, I did.

Mr. DANIELS. He said that there is no specific requirement of a fire extinguisher in each dormitory or bunk provided, however, that there is other alternate means of attending to a fire. For example, he said that in some camps where the buildings are large, they had adequate fire hose and adequate water pressure so that in the event of a fire the hose would be better and more accessible rather than the use of a fire extinguisher.

He also pointed out, as you did, that the accessibility of the fire extinguishers to the children lead sometimes to horseplay. So thereMr. CASTRO. But we also have an accountability to the State of New York because New York State underwrites our operation costs and our capital costs and rehabilitation costs.

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you very much. I appreciate having you here today.

Mr. CASTRO. It is a pleasure to have you here.

Mr. DANIELS. Our final witness is Mr. David Krieger. Mr. Krieger, I understand you are a witness here today and you requested the opportunity to testify. I understand you are appearing here as just a plain, ordinary citizen who has had some experience in camp work. Is that correct?

STATEMENT OF DAVID KRIEGER, SON OF OWNER OF CAMP MONROE,

MONROE, N.Y.

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, for the record, will you give us your address and your occupation. Where do you reside?

Mr. KRIEGER. I reside at Camp Monroe, Monroe, N.Y.
Mr. DANIELS. You actually live at the camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. I live in the camp. My father is a camp director. He owns the camp. It is a private camp. It is located about 45 minutes from here, and I would like to sort of present my own viewpoint concerning private camps, concerning some of the effects of the New York State law and make some recommendations on the type of things that you should look for in presenting your own Federal laws.

Mr. DANIELS. What is the name of the camp where you are employed?

Mr. KRIEGER. Camp Monroe.
Mr. DANIELS. How long has that camp been in existence?

Mr. KRIEGER. It has been in existence for 74 years. It has been owned by the same owners for 35 years, my parents, my uncle and aunt.

Mr. DANIELS. Is this a nonprofit or a profit organization ?
Mr. KRIEGER. It is a profit camp.
Mr. DANIELS. How large a camp is it?
Mr. KRIEGER. It is a camp of about 350 campers and 150 staff.
Mr. DANIELS. Is this a coed camp?
Mr. KRIEGER. It is a coed camp ranging in age from 6 to 16.
Mr. DANIELS. Do you have any particular camping season?
Mr. KRIEGER. It ranges 8 weeks.
Mr. DANIELS. From when to when?

Mr. KRIEGER. Starting around July 1 to somewhere around the 25th or 26th of August.

Mr. DANIELS. Is this camp privately owned or is it incorporated ?
Mr. KRIEGER. Privately owned. A partnership.
Mr. DANIELS. The official name is Camp Monroe?
Mr. KRIEGER. Camp Monroe.
Mr. DANIELS. And who is the head of it?

Mr. Krieger. The heads are my parents and my uncle and aunt, and under them is the director and the entire camp structure.

Mr. DANIELS. Are you employed at the camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes.
Mr. DANIELS. In what capacity?

Mr. KRIEGER. I am in charge of the waiters and I run the dining hall.

Mr. DANIELS. You do not officially supervise the children?

Mr. KRIEGER. In past years I supervised the children. First of all, the waiters are considered children, they are considered campers. Our staff doesn't start until they are 17 years old.

. Mr. DANIELS. All right, you are free to testify. Mr. KRIEGER. Thank you.

Concerning a couple of points. First of all, Camp Monroe, along with any other highly respected camp, would welcome any legislation, either State or Federal, that would put an end to any camps that aren't properly run, that aren't properly supervised, that aren't properly controlled. However, a lot of the legislation which was passed in New York State, some of the effects could be so financially burdensome that a lot of camps could be driven out of business.

Camping, whether it is private or public, provides a public service. Most of our campers come from the New York City metropolitan area. It gives them a chance to get away from the city and it gives them a chance to get out in the country.

Some of the laws that I am speaking of are, for example, the fire extinguisher laws. We have a lot of bunks. We have 40 bunks, and we were to place a fire extinguisher in each bunk, then that in itself will present a tremendous financial burden. The extinguishers go for about $200 a piece.

But more important than that, the extinguishers being in the bunks themselves provide a danger when you have these type of extinguishers that the kids can get to easily, that they can play with, that they can shoot off as a giant water gun. They can cause danger to themselves.

Mr. PEYSER. Excuse me. What is a bunk?

Mr. KRIEGER. A bunk is a building housing between 10 and 15 people in our case.

Mr. DANIELS. It is a dormitory, isn't it?

Mr. KRIEGER. Well, it is not a dormitory. A dormitory would be a larger facility. A dormitory would be maybe 50 to 200 people.

Mr. DANIELS. What is the bunk used for, for sleeping purposes only?

Nr. KRIEGER. For sleeping purposes. Mr. DANIELS. Now, did you hear the testimony this morning of Mr. Gates?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes, I did.

Mr. DANIELS. He said that there is no specific requirement of a fire extinguisher in each dormitory or bunk provided, however, that there is other alternate means of attending to a fire. For example, he said that in some camps where the buildings are large, they had adequate fire hose and adequate water pressure so that in the event of a fire the hose would be better and more accessible rather than the use of a fire extinguisher.

He also pointed out, as you did, that the accessibility of the fire extinguishers to the children lead sometimes to horseplay. So therefore there isn't a specific requirement, but in the absence of any other adequate protection in case of a fire, then it is recommended that there be fire extinguishers. Do you feel that that is burdensome ?

Mr. KRIEGER. As far as other adequate fire protection equipment goes, speaking for Camp Monroe, we have had it for a number of years now. We have had hoses available in the campus office, which is the central building located right in the center of camp which is easily accessible.

Our staff is highly trained. We have two counselors in every bunk. The New York State law requires one per eight campers. We have one for four to four and a half to five. As far as the fire extinguishers go, the inspector, who would be under Mr. Gates' department, came by and inspected our camp a few days ago

He went through the routine inspection, and at that time he also mentioned the fire extinguishers. Now, for the larger buildings, the dining hall where there are oil burners for the hot water-we have no buildings that are heated, but all the buildings have hot and cold running water, there we do have fire extinguishers, and they were recommended.

As far as regular fire extinguishers, in every bunk there shouldn't be because of the danger which they present by just being there as far as the kids using them and abusing them.

Mr. DANIELS. What protection do you have outside of the fire extinguisher?

Mr. KRIEGER. We have hoses.
Mr. DANIELS. Did you bring that to the attention of the inspector?

Mr. KRIEGER. That was brought to the attention of us by the inspector that the hoses that we have weren't up to what was considered standard so it just meant getting a few more hoses. We have had hoses centrally located and he wanted them spread out a little bit more. It is no problem.

Mr. DANIELS. Well, therefore you have no problem.
Mr. KRIEGER. We have no problem with it.

There are two other areas though, that do present a problem. That is the 40 square feet in sleeping areas, and something that Mr. Gates didn't mention, and that is the fireproofing of bunks.

First dealing with the 40 square foot area. In our camp the kids spend very, very little time in the bunks. We run a full program, a full activity program. We don't want them to spend time in the bunks. The rainy day activities, our activities are not indoor games in bunks. We have four areas in our camp all of which are large enough to hold the entire camp. Each area by itself is large enough.

We have indoor activities, some of which are more exciting and the kids enjoy it on these rare occasions more than they do the activities on sunny days. We improvise. We try to be as innovative and change as much as possible.

Forty square feet, the way it is proposed, it would have to come into effect in 3 years. In bunks where we have 30 square feet which is the present law which is in existence for the next 3 years, which is what we meet, it would mean reducing bunks. It would mean where we previously had 10 people sleeping, it would be reduced to 6. That type of drastic cut would create such a tremendous financial burden for private camps that they wouldn't be able to meet it.

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