ment. I have no questions to present to you, and I appreciate your endorsement of the legislation under consideration.

Dr. HAUGHIE. Thank you.

Mr. DANIELS. Mr. Peyser, do you have any questions?

Mr. PEYSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I, too, Dr. Haughie, of course, sympathize with you. The tragedy of this kind of thing is, you know, in many ways so terrible and so preventable that I am sure this in itself has caused much agony.

I had a situation with a young father who lives in my district whose son was also 8 years old who inadvertently walked to his death in the National Park at Yellowstone in one of the hot springs where there were absolutely no railings around the hot springs, and with the fog and steam coming up, and he was with the boy, and the boy just disappeared. Inexcusable. There had been several deaths at the very same spot over the last period of years and still there was no railings, just a basic railing to prevent that incident from happening. There are railings there now, absolutely too late, but nevertheless we got into the thing, and Congress at times doesn't do too many things, but at least we got a railing. That was something, but very late.

I am interested in knowing when this happened. Now, the report of this situation, this was in July of 1973 and, this was, I take it, reported to the State. Was there any response from the State.

For instance, what has happened to the site of the camp since then? Is the camp still operating? Does it still use the same site? Has anything corrective taken place?

Dr. HAUGHIE. I visited the campsite, Mr. Peyser, in October of last year. At that time there were several people camping there. I was horrified when looking up from the site at which my son was found, to see young people sitting on the top of this cliff in a very dangerous position. To my knowledge, no action has been taken to correct this situation.

As far as the response from the State is concerned, of course my son's death was reported to the county of Essex and to the New York State Health Department.

I might add that subsequent to his death I spent many hours in reviewing existing camp regulations within New York State and other States. I have reviewed carefully the recommendations of the American Camping Association and the National Safety Council. I have spent several hours with Mr. Gates, who just delivered some testimony to you, in trying to sort out in my own mind how we can perhaps more effectively encourage and regulate and promote and assure that camp safety is uppermost in the mind of camp operators. You can appreciate the difficulty one has in wearing two hats. One is as a parent and the other is as a health official fully cognizant of problems of feasibility in trying to assure parents that the operations of the camp are safe; that the personnel are concerned about the safety of our children as we are.

Mr. PEYSER. If I can make my questions a little more pointed. On that one issue there is obviously nothing you can regulate or set forth if young people or older people want to go up and sit on the edge of a cliff or dangle off a mountain or do whatever they want to do, that becomes basically their situation and their thinking.

We have got to provide basic ground rules of protection. Are the organized camps using this site the way they formerly used it, or has there been any change at all?

Dr. HAUGHIE. I have the assurance of the operator of the camp to which my son was sent that he will not use that campsite on any future occasion.

I have no knowledge whether other camp operators have made that same decision.

Mr. PEYSER. Of course, this is what I really would be interested to know because here is the area of camp safety, and if the camp operator you have been involved with is no longer using it, well, that is fine. But if another camp operator simply moves into that situation and another little boy or girl may go to his death, then we have not made much progress, and I would hope that something could be done in those type of situations through even New York State's regulations as they now exist.

Dr. HAUGHIE. I believe that the proposed revision that Mr. Gates has referred to of part 7 of our State sanitary code will go further to assure the safe operation of camps. It will require constant surveillance. The point that you have made, that one of the reasons we don't understand perhaps what is going on in camps from the point of view of all camp operations in New York State, for example, is that we have no mechanism presently existing that allows close surveillance over just what are the conditions of serious injuries occurring in camps or what was the extent of supervision at the time: was there faulty equipment involved, and what possible steps could have been taken to avert these accidents.

Mr. PEYSER. Just one other question. In dealing with the camp that you had the experience with were the counselors adults, adults involved in this, or were there any junior counselors?

Dr. HAUGHIE. There was one counselor who was 18 or 19 years of age, and another two were 15 and 16 years of age.

Mr. PEYSER. And how many boys were involved in this particular situation?

Dr. HAUGHIE. I think there was a total of eight boys.

Mr. PEYSER. Thank you very much. I appreciate your testimony. Mr. DANIELS. Doctor, thank you very, very much.

Our next witness is Mr. Nash Castro, general manager of the Palisades Interstate Park Commission.

STATEMENT OF NASH CASTRO, GENERAL MANAGER, PALISADES INTERSTATE PARK COMMISSION; ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN REID, SUPERINTENDENT OF CAMPS, PALISADES INTERSTATE PARK COMMISSION

Mr. CASTRO. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Peyser.

I would like to ask Mr. John Reid, who is the superintendent of camps of the Palisades Interstate Park Commission, to join me because he is really very well informed on these matters, in many respects better than I.

Let me say, Mr. Chairman, that I applaud the constructive objective of your legislation. I think what you seek to do is most laudable

and commendable. We have a great deal of experience in camp operation here in the Palisades Interstate Park system.

Some of our camps have operated for more than 50 years. Some of the people identified with the camp operation, the camp directors, for example, have been with us during all that period of time. Because of this experience, I think that we generally conform to the New York State regulations that have recently been adopted.

We are monitored by the State of New York Health Department, last year being the first time. We expect that they will come with more frequency this year now that they are getting into the full swing of their program.

We have a rather structured camp program in the sense that we have procedural manuals for the guidance of the camp directors, we have rules and regulations governing the operations of the camps, we have standards, vis-a-vis, lifeguards, nurses, infirmaries, dining halls, et cetera.

Over the past 15 years our commission, with appropriated funds from the State of New York, has invested over $2 million dollars in improving the camps in rehabilitating infirmaries, kitchens, mess halls, sleeping quarters, latrines, just about everything that makes

up a camp.

I might say that within the 43 camps that we operate in this park system, we have about 1,500 buildings.

I have no observations to make with respect to the legislation except one, and that would be my hope that the paper work that may result from this will not be overwhelming in any way. I know there is something of a tendency always for this to happen, and I hope you will be very attentive to that.

Also, I would hope that your subsidy or grant program that will help underwrite some of these costs, which I am sure will occur in connection with this program, will be generous enough to at least reasonably offset what additional costs we will be incurring as a result of this Federal legislation.

Mr. DANIELS. I might say to you, Mr. Castro, we do not desire to impose any financial burden upon the camps. I realize what bureaucracy has a tendency to do with regard to the filing of reports. It is not the desire of this committee to impose any undue hardship with regard to filing multitudiness reports. However, the statistics that we are asking with regard to fatalities, accidents, and illnesses is something that I think is essential in order to have a productive and an effective law on the books.

Primarily, we are interested in protecting the life, the health, and the safety of children who do go to camp. I realize here in an interstate park that you have a very wonderful operation and it is to be commended. I live not far from this area and I have often traveled to Bear Mountain here and I have some knowledge of your operation, and if all camps operated in this manner, the manner in which the camps are operated here, I don't think there would be any need for legislation whatsoever, either at the hands of the Federal Government or the States.

But, unfortunately, there are some camp operators who in their desire to make a buck, so to speak, disregard the health and safety

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of the people who are entrusted to their care, and you have heard the testimony here this morning.

I think by and large most camps operate properly and do a good job, but unfortunately you have those amongst us who do not, and so that is where the Government steps in and that is our role. I am hopeful that we will be able to get legislation on the books to protect these children.

You have also heard it said here this morning we pass legislation to protect animals. Now, I think the life of a boy or a girl is just as important as any animal that we may desire to protect.

Mr. CASTRO. Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely correct and that is why I said at the outset that I applaud the constructive work that you are doing in behalf of camps. I wish you much success with it. Mr. DANIELS. Sir, will you give us your name and background, for the record?

Mr. REID. John Reid, from the Palisades Interstate Park Commission. I am the supervisor of camps and recreational activities for the Palisades Interstate Park Commission.

Mr. DANIELS. Well, we appreciate hearing from you. Anything that you desire to say to implement the statement of Mr. Castro will be appreciated.

Mr. REID. I am sure that I speak for all my directors and we are very happy to say that we are glad that such legislation is being proposed.

I would like to say something in light of the waterfront program. We have found that many people come to our camps with certified Red Cross cards that do not meet our standards, and we have instituted a testing program of our own to find if these people are deficient in their skills.

I do not mean this to condemn the Red Cross, they are doing a wonderful job and it is the only thing that we have, but we have found deficiencies in these people who do hold cards.

Mr. DANIELS. Is there anything further you desire to say?

Mr. REID. I would like to point out that we do have a full-time inspector of sanitation and waterfront facilities on our staff. In addition to this we have a health officer who is a doctor who also checks these facilities during the summer season.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, can either of you gentlemen or both of you furnish the committee with any statistics with regard to fatalities, accidents, or illnesses?

Mr. CASTRO. We can indeed, Mr. Chairman. We would be happy to do that.

Mr. DANIELS. I just want you to talk off the top of your head and give me information which may not be exactly correct. We would like to know just what the factual situation is. You have been in this business now for a long period of time and I am quite sure that a responsible organization like yours must keep some records.

Mr. CASTRO. We do indeed, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. And this committee would be much interested in whatever statistics you can furnish us with.

Mr. CASTRO. We will be very happy to provide them to you. Off the top of my head I can say to you that because of our inspectional

program, which is rather rigid, both on the part of our medical doctor who makes regular inspections and our regular inspector who makes regular inspections throughout the summer, we have encountered no problems with respect to epidemics of any kind.

We have had one fatality that I am aware of in the last 10 years, and this occurred, unfortunately, last summer where a 9-year-old youngster under swimming supervision apparently had a seizure and he vomited, apparently reabsorbed the food that he had vomited which caused a blockage in his throat and the death was not attributed to swimming but rather to a seizure of some form. That is the only fatality that we have had within the last 10 years.

As I say, our camps serve 6,500 people at a time and they rotate on an average of about every 2 weeks. so that by the end of the summer we will have had about 45,000 youngsters in the camps. I don't know in that particular case what might have been done to prevent that fatality. I am not sure that anything might have been done.

Mr. DANIELS. What supervision existed?

Mr. CASTRO. There was a lifeguard present in the swimming area when this happened and he got the youngster out of the water: apparently didn't realize that he had a blockage of regurgitated food in his passage and he died even though artificial respiration and other measures were taken to save his life.

Mr. DANIELS. Counsel suggests, do you have a buddy system at the swimming area?

Mr. CASTRO. We have a lifeguard present at all of our swimming areas. I don't know that we have a buddy system as such. John, perhaps you can address yourself to that.

Mr. REID. Yes, we do. Some method is used, either caps or a checkoff on a board, but there is a buddy system employed in the camps. Mr. DANIELS. Was this in existence at the time?

Mr. REID. This boy was in an area where he was learning to swim and he was in a very shallow area and there was a lifeguard on duty, so he was the only one in this area with the lifeguard at the time.

Mr. DANIELS. Getting off to a different point. Under the New York a previous witness testified that there is a registration fee of $100 per camp. Do you feel that that fee is unduly burdensome?

Mr. CASTRO. It won't be in our case, Mr. Chairman, because our camps are all operated by charitable nonprofit organizations.

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you, gentlemen. I will call on my colleague, Mr. Peyser. Do you have any questions to ask the witnesses?

Mr. PEYSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a few questions. As a practice, how many children would be swimming in one area at one time? In other words, in a typical camping arrangement that yon have up here in this area?

Mr. Rem. I think I would have to say it would depend on the particular camp and the waterfront. For example, our camps are set up with a swim crib and this is an area where children begin to learn to swim are placed. The water level in there we try to maintain at three feet or less. An area could have two swimming cribs, and then also there would be a float with a deep water area. So it would be hard to say. It would depend upon the particular waterfront.