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Lastly, the levees in Mexico should be maintained and strengthened to protect against the Gila River, as well as the Colorado, and those levees must be permanent.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have made your statement, which you have just brought to a conclusion, very clear in your former testimony, Mr. Carpenter, but we are very glad to have it accentuated.. Senator Ashurst desires to ask you some questions.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Carpenter, were you present when I asked the Governor of Utah and the gentleman who represented the Governor of New Mexico some questions concerning a letter written by Mr. McClure?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. So far as you know, or in your opinion, will there be any attempt made by the responsible authorities of the State of Colorado to obtain any revenue from, or in any wise to control, or have any voice, directly or indirectly, in the allocation of power developed on the Colorado River wholly within the lower basin?

Mr. CARPENTER. Absolutely no. I can not conceive any condition under which the State of Colorado would feel that it had a legal or a moral right to go into the lower basin and demand either power or revenue, any more than the people of the lower basin would have a right to come up into Colorado.

Senator ASHURST. Thank you.

Senator KENDRICK. Would you not state a condition there, Mr. Carpenter-if I may interrupt-to the effect that the employment of water for power should not interfere with the use of the same in the upper basin for irrigation?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes; most certainly. Unconsciously, perhaps, I was relying upon the compact. Unless there is proper protection in that respect, by compact or other adequate measures, a power right in the lower States would be an appropriation which might be used. to harass the upper basin; and, of course, any power use in the lower basin should be made subservient to the dominant use of water for irrigation and domestic purposes in the upper territory.

Senator KENDRICK. Further than that, as I understand you, our upper basin States would have absolutely no interest in the power development below the lines in those States?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is my belief.

Senator ASHURST. Then, Mr. Carpenter, if the Federal Government should construct dams at Bridge Canyon, Boulder Canyon, or Glen Canyon, or at any other point or points below Glen Canyon, or if the State of Arizona should build such a dam, then, according to your view, Colorado would not be interested in obtaining any revenue from hydroelectric power generated there, or interested in the allocation of such power?

Mr. CARPENTER. Not in the least. After the river has crossed our frontier it ceases to be our river.

Senator ASHURST. I wish to refer to the Gila River. I am willing to hear your revised figures. Have you any figures showing how much of the waters thereof arise in Arizona and how much in New Mexico?

Mr. CARPENTER. I have the Meeker tables, which I will make a part of my statement.

Senator ASHURST. Who is Mr. Meeker?

Mr. CARPENTER. Ralph I. Meeker is the hydraulic engineer who has given the Colorado River a complete study for the benefit of the State of Colorado. This is his map on the board, and I will introduce some tables prepared by him.

Senator ASHURST. Is he a citizen of Colorado?

Mr. CARPENTER. A citizen, and recognized as an expert in his line. Senator ASHURST. Will you read now the flow of the Gila River? Mr. CARPENTER. Do you mean the quantity?

Senator ASHURST. I wish you to state the quantity of water which the Gila River sends down to the Colorado River; how much of the Gila arises in New Mexico and how much thereof arises in Arizona? Senator JOHNSON. May I inquire if the geography of the Gila River has been settled?

Senator KENDRICK. May I inquire, in that event, as to the location of the head of that river?

Senator ASHURST. Some of the waters of the Gila do head in the western part of New Mexico, near the Arizona line.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I noticed, Senator, that you used the word "dew." The river consists largely of dew that settles there overnight?

Senator ASHURST. I have seen the Gila River when it would float the flying squadron.

Mr. CARPENTER. New Mexico's supply to the Gila River is given by Mr. Meeker as 443,000 acre-feet pr annum on the average, consisting of 244,000 from the Gila and 199,000 from the San Francisco, a tributary of the Gila. The Arizona supply to the river, that is, the supply having its origin in that State, is given at 2,677,000 acre-feet per annum, making a total supply of 3,120,000 acrefeet as the average annual supply of the river.

Senator ASHURST. That is, according to Mr. Meeker, the mean flow of the Gila River, which empties into the Colorado a little above Yuma, Ariz., is, so Mr. Meeker says, about 3,120,000 acre-feet, of which Arizona furnishes 2,677,000 acre-feet?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir; would empty if not used in Arizona. Senator ASHURST. But the San Francisco empties into the Gila in Arizona. It is an Arizona river.

Mr. CARPENTER. That is, that amount of water would go in if it were not retained and used for irrigation. This is what they call the reconstructed total.

Senator ASHURST. Will you include that table in the record at this point?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

(The tables referred to are here printed in full, as follows:)

MEEKER TABLES

[Compiled by R. I. Meeker, irrigation engineer, December 2, 1925]

TABLE A.-Colorado River Basin water supply-Contributions by States

These figures represent conditions of reconstructed river or river flow unreduced by irrigation uses. Actual river flow is now less due to consumption by irrigation. The Arizona figures include the Gila River, which is a part of the Colorado River system.

72578-26-PT 6- 4

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Colorado produces 55 per cent of the Colorado River water supply. The upper basin States contribute 79 per cent of the basin water supply. Upper basin allotment under the terms of the compact will be 35 per cent of the basin water supply and 44 per cent of upper basin production.

COLORADO RIVER BASIN WATER SUPPLY-AVERAGE YEARLY FLOW OF BASIN

Based on long-time mean, covering wet and dry cycles. Recorded flow corrected for depletion by irrigation. These figures represent approximately the total yearly flow of the Colorado River basin unreduced by irrigation consumption; in other words, the run-off of the reconstructed river. Upper and lower basin terms fit definitions of same in Colorado River compact as drafted at Santa Fe, N. Mex., November, 1922.

TABLE 1.-Total basin water supply-reconstructed river

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Reconstructed Colorado River at Lees Ferry

Inflow to Colorado River between Lees Ferry and above mouth of

17,000,000

Gila River:

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TABLE 5.-Arizona Water Production, Colorado River Basin

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4, 600, 000

225,000 75,000 443, 000

743, 000 3,852, 000

4, 595, 000

787,000 1,470, 000 609, 000 181, 000 23, 000 50,000

3, 120, 000

244, 000
199,000

443, 000

2,677,000

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Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we shall be glad to have you do so.

Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Carpenter, Senator Ashurst has asked you a number of questions concerning whether or not Colorado would claim the right to any revenue derived from the use or sale of power in the lower basin, and you have said that we would not. As I understand it, your answer is based, as you have intimated, upon the Colorado River compact?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Representative TAYLOR. Colorado does not waive any rights that we would obtain by the unconditioned ratification of the seven States' compact.

Mr. CARPENTER. Not at all.

Representative TAYLOR. And anything more or anything less than that we do not claim. And your assumption as to our rights would not interfere with what the Government of the United States may do, or with any rights that we would obtain by virtue of Arizona and all the other States entering into that seven State compact without reservations?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is correct. My answer is predicated the assumption of regulation of the river and use of the waters under the compact. Up until that time there is only one position we can take in Colorado, and that is one of absolute control of the river in our State.

Representative TAYLOR. Colorado is not waiving any rights that she may have, especially to any State that has not joined the compact, concerning the use of that water or the power that may be derived therefrom?

Mr. CARPENTER. We are not waiving our rights either under the compact or without the compact.

Senator ASHURST. Arizona is invited to enter into a compact which does not comprehend power. Here comes a letter trying to read into the compact something which the compact does not discuss. Gentlemen now urge Arizona to ratify the compact and begin to attempt to read into it and to hint and to threaten that they are going to read into it clauses to suit themselves, and I desire that these questions shall be fully understood.

Mr. CARPENTER. The compact does comprehend power, but if the compact is adopted, the State of Colorado will make no claim for any power or allocation of power, as a matter of right, from any structure in the lower river below Lee Ferry. The State of Colorado or her citizens might be bidders in the open market———— Senator ASHURST. I understand

Mr. CARPENTER. But we will make no claim, as a matter of right, if the compact is approved. If the compact is not approved we reserve every right we now possess, and will expect to enforce them whenever necessary.

Senator PHIPPS. Mr. Chairman, at that point let me say that while, of course, Mr. Carpenter as a witness is stating his belief and opinion, anything which he says can not in any measure bind the authorities of the State of Colorado.

Senator JOHNSON. That is what I was wondering.

Senator PHIPPS. And neither would anything I might say in my capacity as a Senator be binding upon the State of Colorado. But Mr. Carpenter's understanding of what the attitude of Colorado really is and will be is exactly in accord with my own, although we have not discussed the question between us.

I think the Senator may be unnecessarily disturbed on that point. Granting that some large power development is imitated upon the waters of the Colorado, undoubtedly Colorado industries may require some of that power

Senator ASHURST. I understand.

Senator PHIPPS. And those in control of the distribution of that power may be only too glad to have that outlet for what they may produce. And without going into any of the legal phases as to Arizona's right to collect a tax or toll-I personally dislike the

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