Senator SHORTRIDGE. Mr. La Rue, what, if any, official position do you now occupy?

Mr. LA RUE. Official position do I occupy?

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. LA RUE. As hydraulic engineer of the United States Geological Survey, Department of the Interior.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And you have come here at the request or the suggestion of this committee, of course?

Mr. LA RUE. I came at the request of the chairman of the committee. But I do not represent anybody, unless it might be said that I am speaking in the interest of the taxpayers of the United States as a whole.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And you differ, we perceive, radically from certain conclusions reached by other engineers.

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And you have had occasion to see the testimony or know about the testimony given by Colonel Mulholland, do you?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And I take it you differ radically from his conclusions?

Mr. LA RUE. Well, to this extent: He says it will cost $150,000,000 to siphon 1,500 second-feet across the river at the canyon, and I say it will cost $14,000,000. And I am willing to put it up to engineers to check up.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I am asking for answers that will be responsive to my questions. It will only take a few minutes if you will answer directly. You differ as to the cost of an aqueduct from the river at the point named to Los Angeles?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. To what extent do you differ as to cost, without going into detail as to your reasons?

Mr. LA RUE. I believe that it would probably result in saving about $100,000,000 to the taxpayers of the city of Los Angeles. I say that is possible.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. He estimated the cost at about $150,000,000 if I remember correctly. What do you estimate the cost at? Mr. LA RUE. This plan involving pumping?

Senator SHORTRIDGE. What is your estimate?

Mr. LA RUE. My estimate of a gravity plan is

Senator SHORTRIDGE (interposing). No; first, if you please, give me an answer as to the estimated cost of his plan?

Mr. LA RUE. I am accepting his figures for his plan.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I have put a great many questions in my day, Mr. La Rue, and I think I can put a few more now. And I should appreciate it if you will answer these questions directly. Colonel Mulholland suggested a certain aqueduct to carry the water in a certain way from the river to the city of Los Angeles, and he estimated the cost of that aqueduct. Do you recall the amount of his estimate?

Mr. LA RUE. Only as it has been stated in the newspapers, at $150,000,000.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Having in mind the aqueduct which he mentioned, what do you say the cost would be?

Mr. LA RUE. I accept his figure.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Very well. But you suggest a different method of carrying the water?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Could you state briefly your method?

Mr. LA RUE. The construction of a diversion dam at Bridge Canyon.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. You would divert the water from the Colorado River at Bridge Canyon, and then carry it on to the city of Los Angeles by a certain route.

Mr. LA RUE. Yes; a gravity plan such as I have suggested calls for a point of diversion at Bridge Canyon.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Now, taking the water out of the river at Bridge Canyon and carrying it thence to the city of Los Angeles by the method you would suggest, would cost how much?

Mr. LA RUE. The report which I have prepared gives that cost at $164,000,000; that is, for the full supply. The initial cost would be about $140,000,000, because you do not have to build the siphons to full capacity at the beginning.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Leaving out of consideration accidents or mishaps or unusual situations that might develop, where was he to take the water out, do you remember?

Mr. LA RUE. I do not know that it was definitely stated, but somewhere in the vicinity of Blythe or Parker.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. You think he underestimated the cost of his own proposed aqueduct, do you?

Mr. LA RUE. No, sir. I say I accept his estimate.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Very well, then. But your judgment is that it would be better to take the water out of the Colorado River at Bridge Canyon, and thence carry it to the city of Los Angeles; is that your view?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes. If those figures are correct, and say it only costs $164,000,000 to put the water in there by gravity, that repre sents only $14,000,000 more as initial cost. And then by his plan it would cost $6,000,000 to $7,000,000 a year to pump the water, and if you capitalize that it will give you $150,000,000 more, which makes his project a cost of $300,000,000 to the people of the city of Los Angeles as against a cost of $164,000,000 for the gravity plan.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Your plan is the gravity plan, for taking the water from Bridge Canyon to the city of Los Angeles. Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And you say it will cost in round figures $160,000,000?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Whereas his plan, you think, would cost some little more?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir; when you capitalize the pumping charge. Senator SHORTRIDGE. Certainly, I am keeping in mind, without going into the details, all the elements of cost, initial cost of building the aqueduct, and so on. How about the expense of maintenance as between your suggested plan and his, Mr. La Rue?

Mr. LA RUE. I would say it would be less in the case of the gravity plan, because the most of it is in a tunnel, or a large amount of it will be, while there is only 66 miles of tunnel on his line, as I understand. There may not be much difference in that; I do not know.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. A responsive answer to my question might be made in four words. Do you consider the cost of maintenance of your plan greater or less than his plan?

Mr. LA RUE. I would consider it less.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Could you in a few words tell us why it would be less?

Mr. LA RUE. Because the most of it, or not the most of it either, but a large part of it, would be under ground; concrete-lined tunnels. But his pumping machinery, you see, deteriorates. He has electric motors and pumps and you are liable to be pumping dirty water.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Would there by any difference in the amount of evaporation of water when carried by the one or the other of these projected systems?

Mr. LA RUE. There would not be much difference. The evaporation loss in a concrete line conduit even though it is exposed is very small.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. No estimate has been made of that?

Mr. LA RUE. No.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Now, you contemplate development of the whole resources of that great river, and you have indicated your plan by the diagram we see before us.

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. The larger colored space there indicates Glen Canyon, and the smaller and the next to the last one to the left, the Mohave, or the suggested Mohave dam site, is that right?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. The sizes of them may not be significant, and it may be a simple question, but why is it that the Glen Canyon is shown so much shorter than the one below, the Mohave?

Mr. LA RUE. Well, that to the engineer indicates right away that this, Mohave Canyon, is a much better site as a storage site. There is the low dam, only 158 feet, and stores more water than the 386 feet here (Glen Canyon); in fact, it stores ten times as much for dams of equal height.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I do not care for these others. Do not mix them, please. As between the two sites there is no reason other than stated for having the diagram prepared as we see it before us?

Mr. LA RUE. That does not show the spread of the water. That is simply height of dam, and then it was colored in so as to make it show up on the wall.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Looking forward into the future if you made an estimate as to the approximate ultimate cost of the building of these dams what would it be, or have you done that?

Mr. LA RUE. No; but I can make one for you in about a minute. Senator SHORTRIDGE. Well, if it will not take you more than a minute, please do so.

Mr. LA RUE. $1,140,000,000. That is simply figured on installed capacity of the plants, or 5,700,000 multiplied by $200. And it will be cheap power if they develop it for $200.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And if you had the power and the authority to go forward now where would you commence to develop?

Mr. LA RUE. I would build a flood-control dam and take care of the lands in Imperial Valley.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Where would you build it?

Mr. LA RUE. At either Glen Canyon or Mohave Canyon.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Have you at the present any preference in your own mind as the result of present information as to where you would commence work?

Mr. LA RUE. Well, personally, I would rather discuss it with engineers.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Well, discuss it with me for a moment.
Mr. LA RUE. All right.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Where, if you had the power and the authority now to deceide the question, would you begin work?

Mr. LA RUE. I would make a study of the records and determine first the possibility of a flood occurring that would damage the Imperial Valley. If it seemed reasonable to believe that a flood might occur within the next three or four years I would by all means build it at Mohave Canyon. If it looked as though their works down there would tide them over for 15 years, then I would build it at Glen Canyon, because water is worth after it is stored much more there than at Mohave Canyon.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I will make this observation because I want it in our minds: I assume that we all have in our minds the present and immediate future and the possibility of dangers of the future, that there is danger of great floods which may break through or over the present levees or dikes and cause great loss of property and possibility of life. Therefore time is of the essence of things, and we can not delay this forever, or to any indefinite, far remote period. I assume that the committee and the Congress, and all gentlemen, wish to get to work as soon as possible in view of the possible dangers. Now, having all these things in mind, is it your judgment that you would commence at Mohave or at Glen Canyon? Mr. LA RUE. If there was danger of a flood in the Imperial Valley within two or three years I would say commence at the Mohave Canyon. It hinges on that point.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Well, we know what has happened in the past.

Mr. LA RUE. Yes.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. We have a very vivid recollection of that. Mr. LA RUE. Yes; but if they provide some remedy down there through the Pescadera cut, which some say will probably prevent any destruction in the valley for 15 years, I say, if they are right about that, then we might build a dam at Glen Canyon.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Doubtless you have told us already, but how long would it take a build to dam at Glen Canyon? Mr. LA RUE. About six years.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That would be of what height?

Mr. LA RUE. To raise the water 386 feet. And, by the way, this morning

Senator SHORTRIDGE (interposing). One moment. That is all I care for that. And about what would be the cost?

Mr. LA RUE. I would guess it at about $30,000,000. Senator SHORTRIDGE. And to build a dam, we will speak of it in my question as at Boulder Canyon, meaning Black Canyon, would cost about how much, to build a dam at a height of 550 or 560 feet?

Mr. LA RUE. I have never estimated it, but I understand that the Bureau of Reclamation engineers estimated the cost of a dam at Black Canyon site for flood control only at $28,000,000.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I understand that the Mohave Dam which you suggest would be for flood control or control of the flow of the river and irrigation?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And not for the development of power at all?

Mr. LA RUE. No, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. So that the return to the United States Government, if the Government should advance the money, would necessarily come from irrigation uses?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And devotion of the waters to beneficial irrigation purposes, is that right?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Whereas it is stated, as I understand, that a dam at Boulder Canyon would make it possible to develop, say with a dam of 550 or 560 feet, some 550,000 horsepower; is that right?

Mr. LA RUE. I think so.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. And would also solve the flood problem, would it not?

Mr. LA RUE. Yes; but the Government

Senator SHORTRIDGE (interposing). We will get it quicker if you will make direct answers to my questions. And it would also make it possible to desilt to a very great degree the muddy waters of the river, to the end that they might be carried on down ultimately to now arid land. That is true, is it not?

Mr. LA RUE. The river would not be desilted. If you will give me a minute or two, I will explain what I think would happen. Senator SHORTRIDGE. I would be very glad, but let me put my question right there.

Mr. LA RUE. Let me say here

Senator SHORTRIDGE (interposing). Pardon me and let me ask my question. Assume that a dam is built 550 or 560 feet in height. The waters will continue to flow and fill up that dam to a greater or less degree. What would be the effect in the matter of desilting those thick, muddy waters?

Mr. LA RUE. If we could tell you absolutely what would happen it would be a pretty interesting story, because that clear water is coming over that dam, and it will be clear maybe for a few hundred feet, and then it reloads itself with silt. It will be practically as muddy down at Needles and Parker as it was before the dam was built, and it will continue to carry silt until all this silt in the channel below Boulder Canyon has been sluiced out. My estimate of the time it would take for that clear water to sluice that mud out of that channel would be from 100 to 150 years. I can