Mr. GILL. I think we should have a correlation of employment, the wages, and the volume of production, so that these will be together. Mr. DENT. Mr. Chairman, I hate to break it up, but we do have the second bells ringing, and it is time to get over. I was just going to say, and now you gentlemen can understand what we are up against, because we don't have any time and a half, either. Mr. ROOSEVELT. Maybe the Chair would just say, Mr. Lewis, that I think the Chair would be interested, and I think probably the other members, to get your opinion, perhaps subsequently, as to whether it would be feasible to say to the Department of Labor, based upon, for instance, the figures we were discussing, that formula can be shown that if a man is getting $6 a cord, I think you said, and that it is a practical thing to do this, within a 40-hour week, that this will be accepted as a formula, which exempts you from the provisions of the act and thereby removes the Department from coming in and asking the question. Mr. MULLINS. Mr. Chairman, could I say one word on that? Mr. MULLINS. What you are talking about is really fine if all the timber stands were as this man has described it. Some timber stands in an area here Mr. ROOSEVELT. I was going to amplify that, however, to say that I recognize that there would have to be a judgment Mr. MULLINS. Some trees may be short, some long, some swampy. Mr. ROOSEVELT (continuing). In different areas to reach a practical formula, but I think basically what we are after here, and what you are going to have to face, gentlemen, is that if you can show that there are not substandard wages being paid, that this, in effect, satisfies the act, and that, therefore, we want to find out how we can do this. Therefore, we can give you an exemption by a showing that substandard wages are not actually being paid. If you can suggest a practical formula, with an understanding that there have to be variations in whatever formula is established, we might still be able to give you the exemption. But, with the assurance on the part of the committee that we were not giving you an exemption which allowed you to pay substandard wages. Now, that is the basic problem which I wish you would give consideration to, and we would appreciate your comment, if not today or tomorrow, then at least as early as you can get it to us. So, the committee will stand adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair, up until 4 o'clock, and if 4 o'clock is impossible, we will meet tomorrow morning and reconvene with those members of this panel who are able to attend, in room 429, which is the regular committee room. I want to express my very great appreciation to all of you for your cooperation. We will stand in recess. (Whereupon, at 11:20 a.m., the committee was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.) MINIMUM WAGE-HOUR LEGISLATION FRIDAY, MARCH 13, 1964 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, GENERAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON LABOR OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10:05 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 429, Cannon Building, Hon. Augustus F. Hawkins presiding. Present: Representatives Roosevelt, Pucinski, Hawkins, Gill, Martin, and Bell. Also present: John Schuyler, counsel; Ray Rodgers, minority counsel for labor; and Adrienne Fields, clerk. Mr. HAWKINS. The meeting of the subcommittee will now come to order. We will continue with witnesses who were present yesterday, and who I understand did not complete their testimony. The Chair would like to recognize our colleague who is in the chamber here, Congressman Gillis Long of Louisiana. Mr. Long, we are very pleased to have you, and I understand that you will introduce some of the witnesses who have come from the State of Louisiana. Suppose we have the witnesses who were present when we completed the hearing yesterday assemble. I understand there was a panel. Those who were a part of the panel, would you reassemble, just as you desire, and we will get underway. Be seated, please. Now, Congressman Long, would you like to proceed? STATEMENT OF HON. GILLIS LONG, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF LOUISIANA Mr. LONG. Mr. Chairman, let me say that I appreciate the opportunity to appear before your committee. You have among your distinguished panel this morning three gentlemen from Louisiana who are well versed in the subject matter on which they are going to testify. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to recommend them to you, to recommend what they say. They are experienced men in this field. Mr. Lewis, Charley Lewis, is the executive director of the Louisiana Forestry Association; Mr. Joe Burns has been a personal friend of mine for many, many years standing, back even during the war days. He is an independent pulp man from the Winnfield area; and Mr. Max Taunton is an acquaintance of mine of years, and all three of them come highly recommended and I add my recommendation to them. Mr. HAWKINS. Thank you. Mr. LONG. Thank you. Mr. HAWKINS. May I say that Mr. Roosevelt, the chairman of the committee, is unavoidably detained, and I am acting in his absence. I am quite sure that he would have liked to be here to again welcome you, and also you, Congressman Long. Thank you very much. Mr. LONG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HAWKINS. Now I think that Mr. Lewis was more or less acting as anchorman, was he? Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. Mr. HAWKINS. Would you care to proceed, Mr. Lewis? PANEL: LOUISIANA FORESTRY ASSOCIATION: CHARLES LEWIS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR; JOE D. BURNS, DEALER; MAX TAUNTON, PRODUCER; MISSISSIPPI MANUFACTURERS ASSOCIATION FORESTRY COMMITTEE: S. F. MULLINS; B. M. STEVENS, JR.; R. D. WILCOX STATEMENT OF CHARLES H. LEWIS, JR., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LOUISIANA FORESTRY ASSOCIATION Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We concluded a portion of our formal statement yesterday and we were just about at this point, I believe, that the Mississippi delegation was to make a statement, if they chose to, and then to proceed with the questions from the committee. And I believe Mr. Mullins was to make that statement for the Mississippi group? Mr. MULLINS. Yes, sir; I am. Mr. LEWIS. This is Mr. Mullins, who is a pulpwood dealer from Natchez, Miss. Mr. HAWKINS. Mr. Mullins, would you care to proceed, then? STATEMENT OF S. F. MULLINS, PULPWOOD DEALER, NATCHEZ, MISS. Mr. MULLINS. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I am S. F. Mullins, a pulpwood dealer and tree farmer from Natchez, Miss. I am appearing here on the time allotted to the Forest Products Committee of the Mississippi Manufacturers' Association, along with Mr. Rube Wilcox, on my near right, and Mr. Ben Stevens, who is a tree farmer and dealer in forest products from Richton, Miss., on my far right. Now on yesterday, we presented your committee with a statement, and in the interest of time we will not read this statement in its entirety, but we would like to have it filed for the record. Mr. HAWKINS. There is no objection, and it will be so filed. (The statement referred to follows:) STATEMENT OF S. F. MULLINS, PULPWOOD DEALER, NATCHEZ, MISS. Mr. Chairman, I am S. F. Mullins, a tree farmer and pulpwood dealer from Natchez, Miss. I am appearing here on time allotted to the Forest Products Committee of the Mississippi Manufacturing Association together with Mr. Rube Wilcox, a dealer in forest products from Laurel, Miss., and Mr. Ben Stevens, Jr... also a tree farmer and dealer in forest products from Richton, Miss. I would like to introduce Mr. Stevens, on my left and Mr. Wilcox on my right. Our industry has appeared before this committee on numerous occasions. We are here again today to express our concern and opposition to the proposal in H.R. 9824 that would eliminate the 12-man small logging exemption. I can assure you, this proposal to eliminate the 12-man exemption, if enacted into law, would have the same disastrous effect today as it would have had any time in the past. We at the dealer level do operate under the entire wage-hour law and we are able to comply with all aspects of the law, including the overtime provision and the recordkeeping. Our concern and our reason for being here today is in behalf of this small pulpwood producer and timberland owner who, in most cases, cannot and will not come forward and represent themselves-in reality he doesn't feel he has the ability in most cases, to determine just how various administrative orders and laws will affect him; he expects us, the dealer to whom he sells his pulpwood, and you, the Congress, to take care of him in this respect. Now let me give you a few facts and figures about Mississippi, which is the area in which this pulpwood producer, operates. (We think other States in the Deep South have the same picture.) Mississippi is a State of small farm and timberland ownership, primarily an agriculture and forest product economy; 1959 statistics disclosed 138,142 farms averaging 135 acres each. We have 16.4 million acres of forest land; 73.7 percent of this acreage is owned by farmers and private owners. There are 103,444 owners of forest land that own less than 100 acres. Now who is this producer and small timberland owner who lives and operates in this situation. This is the man, who carries on a variety of activities, during the course of a year, in an effort to make a livelihood. He is mostly a man who farms during the farm season, and during the off farming season, he picks up a little public work, probably gets a little work from his county supervisor, and sells some forest products all during the year, for most of his cash. He will cut a load of wood and bring it in to the nearest wood market and sell it, just like he would sell any of his farm produce. In many cases, he will farm 3 or 4 days a week, and then on the other day or two, he will cut and haul a load or two of wood to market, and this wood income furnishes him with money with which to make his crop. The producer may also be the man who can usually manage to get his hands on an old truck, and can find a few loads of wood each week, for sale at the local wood market. This is the man who has always worked a part of his living out of the woods-he is from the same stock who has always depended upon small woods operation for part of his livelihood. One week he might work at the small sawmill at the edge of town, the next week he will cut a few logs, and the next week he will be back hauling a few loads of wood. He is the one who spends his money in the local store, and at the local service station; he is the one who makes the local rural economy click. He is the man who makes small towns and communities exist. The producer is also the man who devotes his entire efforts toward the production of wood; one who can best be described as a professional wood producer; a small businessman hiring his own laborers, buying his own equipment, purchasing his own timber, but using every available method known to him to efficiently manage and operate his business in order to derive the greatest dollar return. He buys small tracts of timber, generally within a 25-mile radius of his residence and employs from 6 to 12 workers living in the vicinity. Perhaps these workers will be employed between seasonal crops or other occupations and will work periods within days or weeks as their other interests so demand. They work without supervision as to their going or coming and without any set working |