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Mr. ROOSEVELT. Oh, yes.

Mr. CLEVELAND. Farming and the forestry?

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Yes, there are some of us who think they are very closely related and ought to come to this committee, but they don't. Mr. Ayres?

Mr. Hawkins?

Mr. HAWKINS. No questions.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Well, I want to thank you very, very much for your coming before the committee.

Mr. CLEVELAND. Thank you.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. The committee will now hold a panel discussion. There are, I believe, 12 individuals in the panel, and so I here present our distinguished colleague, the Representative from Mississippi, the Honorable John Bell Williams, and I think this is your group. Suppose I lead off and just read the names, and then ask our distinguished colleague if he would not perhaps introduce some of them personally

to us.

We have with us, representing the Louisiana Forestry Association, Mr. Charles Lewis, the executive secretary; Mr. Joe Burns, dealer; and Mr. Mac Taunton, a producer of lumber.

Representing the Mississippi Manufacturers Association Forestry Committee, Mr. S. F. Mullins, Mr. B. Stevens, and Mr. R. D. Wilcox. Representing the Alabama Forest Products Association, Mr. Ernest Hale, the executive secretary; Mr. D. H. Cornish, and Mr. A. E. Young.

Representing the Southern Pine Industry Committee, Mr. J. W. Graham. Mr. P. M. Stimson, and Mr. M. W. Walker, from North Carolina, and Mr. Graham from Alabama.

Gentlemen, will you come forward? And perhaps it would be convenient if you could just pull these chairs around over here and make yourselves comfortable.

The Chair also notices that we have the pleasure this morning of having Congressman Selden and Congressman Grant present with

us.

Gentlemen, we will let you proceed in any order that is convenient to you, and we are very happy and pleased to have you with us to introduce your very distinguished constituents.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, I will take the bull by the horns and start it off.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Congressman Williams.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BELL WILLIAMS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, we have representing the Mississippi Manufacturers' Association Forestry Committee Mr. Mullins, Mr. Stevens, and Mr. Wilcox.

Congressman Colmer had originally planned to introduce these gentlemen to you, but he was unavoidably detained in his office, and I have the very happy privilege of introducing these men to you.

Also, Mr. Chairman, our colleague, the Honorable Otto Passman of the State of Louisiana, my neighbor just across the river, had planned to be here to introduce the Louisiana representatives here, but at the

last moment he was unable to come, and has requested me to do that. We have representing the Louisiana Forestry Association Mr. Charles Lewis, here, one of my former constituents from over at Natchez, and a man who is a good taxpayer and Mississippi citizen now; even though he lives in the State of Louisiana, he owns a little property over in Mississippi. Mr. Joe Byrnes, a dealer from Jonesboro, Mr. Mac Taunton from Farmville.

Mr. Chairman, there is really not too much that I can say, because their statements will speak for themselves. Forestry, and the wood products industries, play a key role in Mississippi and southern economy. These gentlemen represent many lifetimes of experience in this business, ranging all the way from the operation of peckerwood sawmills all the way on up to such operations as the International Paper Co. I can assure you that these men speak with the voice of authority, and I trust and hope that the committee will give them an attentive

ear.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. I want to say to our distinguished colleague we are very grateful to him for coming and introducing these gentlemen. not only on his behalf, but on behalf of the members from Louisiana. And I would also just like to say to my colleague Mr. Williams that I am sure he knows that we have been studying this problem, some of us, for a number of years now, and we have, frankly, in the past very carefully tried not to enter into this field unless we could be thoroughly convinced that we would not do a disservice to the industry as a whole; and I am sure that I can say to you and to Judge Colmer, who just came into the room-and very happy to have you with us, too-that this is our attitude today; that we have no fixed convictions, we are searching, we are prodding, as I am sure you will agree we should; and that we are very grateful to these people who have come so far to give us not only the facts about their industry, but the benefit of their long experience.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, may I respond that we have always found this committee to be very fair in their approach to these problems, and, of course, as the chairman has said, this is a matter which comes up quite often, almost as often as the postal pay-raise bill, and he has had wide experience in this field, and we feel certain that this matter is in good hands.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Grant?

STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE M. GRANT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA

Mr. ROOSEVELT. We want to welcome you, too, sir, and express our appreciation to you for coming in this morning.

Mr. GRANT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee. I am not going to take any time myself, but ask you that the record might show that all of the Alabama delegation: Messrs. Andrews, Rains, Roberts, Jones, Huddleston, Elliott-and Mr. Selden is here in person-are represented by someone from their office. Severa! of them are out of the city today, and others were in committee meetings and unable to be here. We have several representatives from Ala

bama, and I don't know how you are going to handle this, but I would like to introduce Mr. E. E. Hale, of Montgomery, Ala., who is executive vice president of the Alabama Forest Products Association. And he, in turn, will introduce the others of his panel.

Thank you.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Thank you very much, Mr. Grant. Our appreciation to you and the other members of the Alabama delegation. Judge Colmer?

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM M. COLMER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI

Mr. COLMER. Pardon me, I don't want to be out of order. It seems I am out of order, though.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. You are never out of order.

Mr. COLMER. Mr. Chairman, I do apologize for not having been here when you started, but I think the Chair understands. I thought I had an understanding, and I evidently misunderstood the Chair, that this would start at 10:30, and so I have been detained in my office.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. An unusual situation to have a committee ahead of time.

Mr. COLMER. Well, that is unusual. Incidentally, I have to go to my own committee shortly, but I had intended being here and presenting these constituents of mine. I am grateful to my colleague Mr. Williams for having done so.

Mr. Chairman, may I just say very briefly that this is a matter in which we, in my area, particularly, south Mississippi, where the best crops that we have are our children and our pine trees, that this means a great deal to us; and we hope that this committee will certainly approach this matter with great caution, certainly with appropriate caution, because of what it means, the impact upon the economy of that particular section of our great common country. And I just hope that the committee will give it that consideration and in that light. You know, there is such a thing as moving just a little too fast in some of these areas.

I shall not detain the committee. I appreciate the Chair's recognizing me. I am always happy to appear before this committee and my colleagues generally.

I thank you. Sometime, I will be glad to see you up before my committee.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Thank you, Judge Colmer. I appreciate it very much, and you have always been most courteous to me when I have been before your committee. And we are very happy to have you, and I assure you that we will listen to your distinguished constituents with great care and great sympathy. We appreciate it.

Mr. COLMER. If you will excuse me, I have to attend my committee. Mr. ROOSEVELT. Mr. Selden?

STATEMENT OF HON. ARMISTEAD I. SELDEN, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA

Mr. SELDEN. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I would like to say that we do have four very distinguished Alabamans here today: Mr. E. E. Hale, who is the executive secretary of the Alabama Forest Products

Association; Mr. D. H. Cornish of Cullman, Ala.; Mr. A. E. Young of Brookwood, Ala.; and Joe Graham of Maplesville, Ala. I might add that Mr. Graham, in addition to being one of the prominent timber producers and sawmill operators in Alabama, is also a former member of the Alabama State Senate.

I would like to concur in what my colleagues have said, to say that we feel this is a serious problem, and I am sure that these four gentlemen from Alabama will not only speak for themselves and the timber industry of our State, but that the members of the Alabama delegation have in the past, and I am sure will in the future, concur in what they have said.

We appreciate very much your courtesy of hearing them.

Thank you.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. I wish to thank our distinguished colleague. And all I can say is that I know of no delegation that could come before us and present better their constituents than you have and, as I have said to the others, we want to assure you that we recognize the difficulties in this problem, and that we are not going to go ahead in haste. We are going to go ahead with great care and deliberation, and we trust that through the hearing which we will have today, and others which incidentally we have had previously, that we will be sure that we have given opportunity for every aspect of the matter to be thoroughly considered.

We are very grateful to you for coming and being with us today. Now the committee proposes to allow the representatives of each group to make a limited oral statement, starting out with Mr. Charles Lewis, the executive secretary representing the Louisiana Forestry Association.

Mr. Lewis, will you proceed?

PANEL LOUISIANA FORESTRY ASSOCIATION: CHARLES LEWIS, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY; JOE D. BURNS, DEALER; MAX TAUNTON, PRODUCER; MISSISSIPPI MANUFACTURERS ASSOCIATION FORESTRY COMMITTEE: S. F. MULLINS; B. M. STEVENS, JR.; R. D. WILCOX; ALABAMA FOREST PRODUCTS ASSOCIATION: ERNEST E. HALE, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY; D. H. CORNISH, CULLMAN, ALA.; A. E. YOUNG, BROOKWOOD, ALA.; SOUTHERN PINE INDUSTRY COMMITTEE: J. W. GRAHAM, MAPLESVILLE, ALA.; P. M. STIMSON, BATTLEBORO, N.C.; M. W. WALKER, BATTLEBORO, N.C.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES LEWIS, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, LOUISIANA FORESTRY ASSOCIATION

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we have filed a written statement with you, which you have before you now. I would like to make an oral statement also.

First, I would like to introduce myself again, as C. H. Lewis. I am executive director of the Louisiana Forestry Association. Our association consists of 2,500 people. They are primarily timberland owners. We met on March 3 when we learned that this bill had been introduced. We got a copy of the bill. We read it, to fathom its impli

cations so far as our mission is concerned. Our mission is simply to develop the forests of Louisiana and to develop a forestry industry that is compatible with our resources. We have been in business now for about 16 years. As a result of that meeting, I have been asked to attend here, and you were courteous enough to give us an opportunity to do so. I have with me two colleagues, one of whom is a pulpwood producer. Mr. Max Taunton, from Union Parish, a pulpwood producer: and Mr. Joe Burns, a pulpwood dealer, who operates in Winn Parish, Jackson Parish, and Bienville Parish, in Louisiana, both of whom are intimately familiar with this problem and who are here to answer any questions that the committee might choose to put to them about their operations and about the effects of this amendment on their operation.

First of all, we believe that the system of payment for services based upon production, rather than time, is fair, it is proper, and is practical; and we see no legitimate reason for making the change as suggested in the amendment. We know that cutters and loggers who really want to work can earn the minimum wage today without difficulty in our State, and I think that is true of most of the South as a whole. This system is well suited to our rural citizens, and this is where this class of labor comes from. This permits them to work at times, and on days, that are best suited to their auxiliary operations, which are farming, livestock operations, and gardening, and so on.

There are recognized difficulties that others have talked to you about. They have appeared before this committee with regard to keeping an accurate record of the time that these men put in. Now this is not to say that these people who are producers are stupid men at all. It is just the manner in which these operations are conducted that makes it physically impossible for one man to observe the comings and goings of many other men in the woods. And we are also hopeful that you are aware of the severe penalties that would be imposed upon the contractor and the manufacturer if he buys goods from a producer who is not able to produce records that will satisfy the Labor Department.

Frequent moves, as you have been told before, are necessary, and this is imperative, dictated by weather and terrain, timber volume, and that sort of thing. These crews consist of from two to five men, and one producer like Mr. Taunton here may have as many as three or four crews working under him.

Now this man, like Mr. Taunton, has many responsibilities, not the least of which is to buy timber for his crews to work on tomorrow, and next week or next month. He must also estimate that timber, he must search out logging routes, explore the terrain and so on, so he in effect is on the job, a limited period of time and is physically unable to observe the comings and goings of these people. Anyone who is really familiar with logging operations in the South rejects almost any other concept of payment of these people who are employed by the small logging contractors.

Now in the event this exemption is lost, here are some things that will occur, as we see them. First, there will be a tendency to move from the small producer-type system toward the large work-gang-type operation, where these people will have to report to a central location. Under such system they would board a contractor's truck or a manu

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