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Mr. BROWNSON. But the other problem that comes up, as we understood from Mr. Stassen yesterday, in his very frank and very ably presented testimony, is that the Mutual Security Administration, when it goes into the new FOA setup, also intends to retain some information personnel.

Dr. JOHNSON. Oh, I didn't understand that. In fact, I'm rather surprised to hear that. The only people that could possibly, I think, be retained by another agency, in terms of information, would be some technical people who might send out booklets on how to get more wheat out of an acre, or something like that.

Mr. BROWNSON. Of course, that is what he was talking about; but when you take a look at the bureaucracy downtown here, you find that is the nucleus around most of which these public-relations setups are built and, while we agree with this technical pamphlet program, we are a little worried about having another information service over there, particularly since they intend to farm out the preparation of most of the programs, anyway.

I just ran across a delightful one yesterday, in response to a constituent's inquiry, put out by the old Federal Security Administration on how to play games—a delightful thing, but just another example of how far afield these things can go.

These are childish games.

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Chairman, I know Mr. Finan can speak with greater authority than I, and he should speak to this, but this question, Mr. Chairman, you raised a minute ago about the budget for next year, the point of this statement in Dr. Johnson's statement is, namely, that this year the Congress is asked to consider the information budgets in four different packages. There's no overall look as to what information is. You have it in four different appropriations.

Next year the intention is-and if this plan is approved by your committee and the Congress-that there will be one place to look. It will be in one single package. So, that would look as though it were a more orderly

Mr. BROWNSON. Well, we hope you are right, but inasmuch as FOA is concerned, apparently there is a big package in what is going to start out as a little package.

Mr. CLARK. The reorganization plan-I think you probably have the language in front of you, sir-preserves for the Foreign Operations Administration that part of its program which, as Dr. Johnson says, is commonly referred to as how to properly ratproof your farm—and I don't mean that facetiously, but as explanatory material-how, if you plow a field, you change the plow.

Dr. JOHNSON. Fertilizer, and so forth.

Mr. BROWNSON. Of course, this language is a little broad. Subparagraph (b) reads:

Exclusive of so much thereof as is an integral part of economic- or technicalassistance programs, without regard to any inconsistent provision of Reorganization Plan Numbered 7 of 1953, and subject to Subsection (c) of this section, functions with respect to foreign-information programs vested by the Mutual Security Act of 1951, as amended, in the Director for Mutual Security, provided for in Section 501 of the said act, are hereby transferred to the Director.

Now, that language reads:

integral part of economic- or technical-assistance programs.

Now, that is pretty broad.

Mr. CLARK. Could we have Mr. Stokes speak to that?

Mr. BROWNSON. Surely.

Mr. Stokes, will you give your full name and title for the record, please?

Mr. STOKES. Isaac N. P. Stokes. I am employed by the Mutual Security Agency, but I am detailed as special counsel to IIA. Mr. BROWNSON. On a reimbursable basis?

Mr. STOKES. One point I would like to make to be sure there is no misunderstanding-and that is in the passage you just read, Mr. Chairman, the director referred to at the end of the sentence is the director of the United States Information Agency, not the Director for Mutual Security.

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes; that is why I was stressing the first clauseMr. STOKES. Yes.

Mr. BROWNSON. Which is exclusive, because that is the part that remains behind and the balance of it goes, and that, to me, is pretty broad language.

You see, we had the Unification Act here a few years ago, which actually created an Army-Army, Navy-Navy, Army and Navy, Navy and Army, Army Air Force, Navy Air Force, Army Air Force-Navy Air Force, Navy Air Force-Army Air Force and an Air Force-Air Force. So, we got 9 of them when we wanted to get 1.

Well, that is the kind of thing that worries us about this type of thing.

Now, if the Department of State is undoubtedly going to maintain some kind of an information office to put out their feelings and sentiments on some of these things we wind up just back where we started

Dr. JOHNSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, on that matter, I think they will have to have somebody to send out releases from the State Department for United States press, and we're not sending any releases at all, or doing any information work in the United States. In fact, nobody in our organization is permitted to make official speeches in the United States for our organization except myself, and then only on invitation; and I think probably when that decision was made it was probably a wise one.

I think, however, in the future it would be better if we could do a modest amount of publicizing what we do, because I think the taxpayers must wonder where all this money is going; and I think it would be tremendously helpful to the Federal Government if the public realized this money was being spent, we hope, wisely and it was only about-less than 10 percent of the estimates of what the Russian Government is now spending.

And, incidentally, I think if we did send a few lecturers out around the country, men doing a good job in the foreign field, they could impress upon the people of our country that when they go abroad they have a responsibility as our ambassadors.

I think our tourists can do a wonderful job, and we have never been able to successfully reach them.

I think that is a very important aspect of it, but the State Department's publicity bureau will not have anything to do with any publicity abroad. It will just be domestic.

I think I could help a little bit, Mr. Chairman, on this business of the technical papers, maybe this is an oversimplification, but it would seem to be my job to do the mass job—that is, put out information for the great masses of people in foreign countries rather than the special groups like the scientists or like the agriculturists, and so forth.

Now, I don't mean we have to forego, for instance, books distributed by certain unions, where unions are interested in some literature we have, and one of our public affairs officers shows it to him, and he says "Well, this is fine; this answers some questions in my mind.” In a way, that is a little different than the masses, it is a labor group. I would say 95 percent of our program is to reach the masses of the people, explanatory of our policies and motives.

Mr. BROWNSON. We don't want to labor that point because actually you have been given a mandate and the point is not so much concerned with you as it is with the other two organizations and with the extent to which they carry on an information program.

I think your idea of sending lecturers out is an example of what they have done in the past. The last one I heard didn't qualify as good under your definition. It was at a foreign affairs conference at the University of Indiana, and the picture they showed there showed American people lining up to vote and buying their groceries in the market

Dr. JOHNSON. Not very tactful.

Mr. BROWNSON. And telling of the American way of life.

I do think if you send out some good people, particularly to these educational circles and these conferences interested in foreign policy, you will be doing a very fine service.

Dr. JOHNSON. We could have some very fine programs. For instance, one of our best public affairs officers being sent back to his home State of California could speak to picture groups and university groups, and that would do an awful lot of good.

That kind of job I mention now because if it is ever brought up from a legislative point of view, I hope you will support it.

Mr. BENDER. Dr. Johnson, how long have you been on this job?
Dr. JOHNSON. I was appointed on the 3d of March.

I agreed to come down here, I think, the 28th of February. Mr. Dulles asked me to come as quickly as possible. He said, "Can you come down in 10 days or 2 weeks?"

I said, "If you need me as fast as that, I will pack my bag and come." Mr. BENDER. What kind of work did you do before you took this job? Dr. JOHNSON. I was president of Temple University, and still am president of Temple University.

Mr. BENDER. How long have you held that position?

Dr. JOHNSON. This September it will be 12 years, sir.

Mr. BENDER. You didn't take this job because you thought it would make you rich, did you?

Dr. JOHNSON. It cost me a great deal of money to take this job. My salary is half-well, a little more, not much more than half-of what I make as a university president.

Mr. BENDER. You are making quite a point of the fact you are having difficulty in getting some men to fill important jobs.

Dr. JOHNSON. That's right, sir.

Mr. BENDER. Off the record.

(Off the record.)

Mr. BENDER. Dr. Johnson, I want to say this: This is a program that has been prepared as a result of considerable study

Dr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BENDER. And not only by yourself, but Governor Stassen, General Smith, President Eisenhower, and a good many people who have the responsibility for running this show.

Dr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BENDER. I don't understand some of these questions. Some of them are Greek to me. My principal interest is in getting this show on the road

Dr. JOHNSON. That's right, sir.

Mr. BENDER. And, under the circumstances, I would like to see this plan become effective and give the people who have the responsibility for this job given a chance to perform. I have complete confidence in you, sir.

Dr. JOHNSON. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BENDER. I've been on this committee for a number of years. This is my 14th year. I never opposed a program or a reorganization plan that the other administration had advanced because, whether I agreed with them or not, I think it is a fine thing to give the administration the opportunity to perform.

Dr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BENDER. If they don't have the tools to work with, they cannot do the job. So, let's give them the tools.

Dr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BENDER. That is the way I feel about it.

Mr. LANTAFF. You sound like a good Democrat talking, Mr. Bender. Mr. BENDER. That is all right.

Dr. JOHNSON. I was talking to Congressman McCormack a little while ago, and it seems to me he talks the same way, from Massachusetts.

Mr. BROWNSON. They both have been on the committee for a long time.

Dr. JOHNSON. He said he was going to be for the program.

Mr. BROWNSON. Doctor, he brought up one point there that I think is of interest. Didn't Mr. Jackson recently submit a report?

Dr. JOHNSON. Yes.

W. H. Jackson?

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes.

Dr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BROWNSON. Did he comment in any way on the reorganization of information services?

Dr. JOHNSON. Can this be off the record?

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes.

(Off the record.)

Mr. LANTAFF. I have some questions.

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes, Mr. Lantaff.

Mr. LANTAFF. I know we will probably be asked this question on the floor, and I wish you would please address yourself to it for a moment, Mr. Johnson. Section 1 (d) says:

There are hereby established in the agency so many new offices, not in excess of 15 existing at any one time, and with such title or titles as the Director shall from time to time determine.

The subparagraph then goes on:

Appointment thereto shall be under the classified civil service and the compensation thereof shall be fixed from time to time pursuant to the classification laws as now or hereafter amended, except that the compensation may be fixed without regard to the numerical limitation on positions set forth in section 505 of the Classification Act of 1949.

Mr. BROWNSON. Those are the 15 supergrades that the——
Mr. LANTAFF. Are those--

Dr. JOHNSON. Those are the 15 supergrades.

Mr. LANTAFF. Are those new positions?

Dr. JOHNSON. Well, probably not new positions in this sense: For example, the man I promoted he is a career man—as acting head of press and publications, I would think if he makes good he would get one of those supergrades, you see.

Mr. LANTAFF. Well, these are new positions.

Dr. JOHNSON. I haven't one top man there, as a matter of fact. Mr. LANTAFF. What will be the cost of those 15 new positions? Dr. JOHNSON. Understand I am not awfully familiar with Government techniques. I think a salary of fourteen-five is permitted.

Mr. CLARK. It is impossible to estimate it, Mr. Lantaff, because each of these positions must be presented.

Mr. LANTAFF. And justified.

Assuming they are justified in time, the salaries range up to-

Mr. CLARK. Thirteen thousand two hundred to fourteen thousand eight hundred.

Mr. LANTAFF. So, it would average about $14,000?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; but

Mr. LANTAFF. So, if we take $14,000 by 15, that would be about $210,000.

Mr. CLARK. Then, from that, sir, you must subtract if you are trying to get just the additional cost figure-if that is the point-if the man who is director of the press service now gets eleven thousand eight and is given the supergrade at thirteen-two that will have to be considered. So, the additional cost of the supergrade is only the difference.

Dr. JOHNSON. The difference between his present salary and the new salary.

Mr. LANTAFF. In other words, the reason for that is to just provide increased salary and increased incentive?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Dr. JOHNSON. To get good people.

Mr. LANTAFF. And to create new jobs?

Dr. JOHNSON. That's right, where a new job is necessary.

Mr. BROWNSON. Will you yield at that point?

In other words, in your recommendation setting up the 15 supergrades, are you specifically stating that each one of those supergrades will do away with and abolish one of the ordinary grade jobs underneath, or are you adding 15 jobs?

Dr. JOHNSON. No, not adding 15 jobs. I don't think, sir, there will be any new jobs in that top echelon.

Mr. LANTAFF. Well, what the chairman said is correct.

Mr. STOKES. There will be some.

Mr. BROWNSON. In other words, if you just asked for 15 supergrades, you would then get your 15 supergrades on top of what you

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