Mr. STOKES. My name is Stokes. I am acting special counsel for IIA. I think the confusion about the numbers arises from the fact that these 200 people we're talking about are now in the State Department, in the sense that they are in the International Information Administration, which is presently a part of the State Department. That is not true of MSA, which is a separate agency. Mr. BROWNSON. That is correct, because as originally described they presented the basic and historic divisions of the State Department and then they carried them over as they would be projected in strength after the reorganization. Mr. STOKES. That's right. Mr. BROWNSON. You would have to add these 232 people who are now in the IIA program, because they are not a basic and integral part of the old functions of the old Department of State. However, they are on the Department of State's payroll right now, and they will be in the future. Mr. LANTAFF. Isn't their function to determine policy in this respect? Mr. BROWNSON. On the Fulbright scholarships. Mr. LANTAFF. Yes. Dr. JOHNSON. No, sir, if I might answer that question. Mr. BROWNSON. That is correct, because as originally described Mr. BROWNSON. I think it is the mechanical end of the Fulbright scholarships and the actual selection of individuals. Dr. JOHNSON. That's right. Mr. LANTAFF. I wonder why that type of information, exchange service, shouldn't be within this new agency. Mr. BROWNSON. Well, General Smith, I think, testified to that point. You may have been out of the room at the moment. He said that was done without any particular desire on the part of the Secretary of State on a bipartisan desire of Senator Mundt and Senator Fulbright, who had been the two parents of the program and who desired it be kept in State, and that did not represent any strong conviction on the part of the Secretary of State. Dr. JOHNSON. That's right. I might add, if I may, Senator Fulbright-I have had several talks with him, sir-felt this information agency of ours may go out of existence in 10, 15, 20 years-I don't know-maybe 3 years from now. Mr. LANTAFF. What is its life? Dr. JOHNSON. Beg pardon? Mr. LANTAFF. When does the bill expire, or does it? Dr. JOHNSON. I don't think it does. Mr. LANTAFF. Is there any termination date? Mr. STOKES. There is no termination date. Dr. JOHNSON. There is no termination date; but Senator Fulbright felt this program would not go on forever and the Department of State would be here forever, and he didn't want to see the exchange program out on a limb and have their house burned down. This was his chief reason, I think. Mr. BROWNSON. It is my understanding, Mr. Lantaff, Mr. Finan of the Bureau of the Budget will testify on this a little more fully after Mr. Johnson is through. This reorganization act does not in any way extend the life of agencies involved in this act beyond their life under the legislation under which they were created and subsequent amendments thereto. Mr. LANTAFF. Well, this information service has no expiration date, though. Dr. JOHNSON. I don't know that it had. Mr. CLARK. No, sir; it does not have an expiration date. Dr. JOHNSON. As a matter of fact, even if the Kremlin folded tonight, I think we have got a world problem here that will go on for a good many years. I think we are in the middle of a kind of revolution. Until the depressed peoples of the world get their fair share of land, and so forth, we've got to continue, I think, to inform them that we want to be helpful and that we are not materialistic, and so forth. So, I would think this department would go on for a good many years, in greater or lesser extent, depending upon the current problem. Mr. BROWNSON. And we hope you can do that very effectively. One native in Singapore told me he was a little tired of looking at the colored motion pictures Voice of America turned out showing the American housewife with a dishwasher and an electric refrigerator, living in her American bungalow, when his whole problem wasn't washing dishes; it was getting something in them to get them dirty. Dr. JOHNSON. Worrying about next day's meals. Mr. BROWNSON. That's right. Dr. JOHNSON. As soon as I came down here, sir, I tried to put an end to that business. Mr. BROWNSON. That is fine. Dr. JOHNSON. We changed the broadcasts from what they were to a straight commentary and news and put on a religious program. Mr. BROWNSON. I noticed that and certainly approved of it very highly. Dr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. BROWNSON. I think that is a very sound procedure. Mr. LANTAFF. Mr. Chairman. Mr. BROWNSON. Yes, Mr. Lantaff. Mr. LANTAFF. Mr. Johnson, you mentioned you had some 8,000plus employees of whom half were nationals. Dr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. LANTAFF. Just for the purposes of the record Dr. JOHNSON. That is a rough estimate. Mr. LANTAFF. And along the line of questioning Mr. Brownson was pursuing earlier, will you supply for the record the exact number of personnel Dr. JOHNSON. Will I do what? Mr. LANTAFF. That are being transferred to this new agency? In other words, the number of people you start business with Dr. JOHNSON. All right. Mr. LANTAFF. And if this plan should become effective. Dr. JOHNSON. That's right. Mr. LANTAFF. The reason for it is that we want to see just what can be accomplished. Dr. JOHNSON. And break that down as to whether they are nationals and locals. Mr. LANTAFF. Yes. In other words, we would like to have in the record the exact number of people that are being transferred and, if at all possible, I would like to have the exact number of people that are engaged in operative functions which are transferred. Dr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. LANTAFF. In other words, let's say you have 8,000-plus employees. Under the act, you are authorized to transfer personnel, personnel as used in accordance with your direction, and it may be under your new table of organization in your IIA you will only have room for 7,000, so that you will eliminate a thousand people engaged in carrying out the functions of it. Dr. JOHNSON. We would be delighted to do that. For example, how many now Mr. LANTAFF. That is right. Dr. JOHNSON. And how many after reorganization. Mr. LANTAFF. In other words, I want to know how many are employed in the function transferred to the agency Dr. JOHNSON. That's right. Mr. LANTAFF. And then how many you took on in your new agency. I presume it will be less. Dr. JOHNSON. I predict we're going to have considerable cuts. Dr. JOHNSON. But I am hoping, nevertheless, I am not going to be cut down to an appropriation I can't live within because we don't know what uncertainties are going to develop. Mr. LANTAFF. Do you have your plans now for how many top people and how many juniors you are going to have? Dr. JOHNSON. Not yet, sir, because I haven't been able-I have tried very hard for 312 months to get top, able administrators in these various organizations like the Voice of America, for example, and I've had 4 able, topflight men looking for people that would be willing to work, and I haven't gotten anybody yet. Mr. LANTAFF. Well, of course, you will have so many jobs available. Dr. JOHNSON. That's right. I've got about 5 or 6 key jobs I am trying to fill. Nobody seems to want them. Mr. MEADER. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield right on that question? Mr. LANTAFF. Yes. Mr. BROWNSON. Yes. Mr. MEADER. Would it be possible at the same time for you to show how many of the present employees are in the continental United States and how many are overseas Dr. JOHNSON. Surely. Mr. MEADER. And also, if you can, to estimate what additional employees will be required for the housekeeping and administrative services that are now being provided by the Department of State. Dr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. LANTAFF. You still have personnel in the Department of State for housekeeping. Dr. JOHNSON. Well, this thing like security-we have got to set up our new Security Division, sir. We will no longer have Mr. McLeod and his staff. Mr. LANTAFF. Incidentally, what is the purpose for setting up your personnel security? Dr. JOHNSON. We have got to make sure everybody we have is a good American. Mr. LANTAFF. Well, doesn't the State Department Dr. JOHNSON. If we are separated from the State Department, we will have to have our own. Now, all those problems are in the hands of Mr. McLeod. Mr. LANTAFF. Well, you envision that is going to take more person nel, then? Dr. JOHNSON. Well, he's got, as a matter of fact, an assistant he's agreed to have come with us. So, he isn't going to need quite as many people, you see; and Mr. J. Edgar Hoover has recommended a man to head up our Security Division, but I think it is exceedingly important in this sense to make sure we have just as good Americans there. Mr. LANTAFF. Does your staff understand the data Mr. Meader and I have asked for? Dr. JOHNSON. Yes; I think Mr. Clark has it. Mr. LANTAFF. Can that be supplied for the record, say, within the next day or so? The reason for it is we will probably conclude these hearings. Mr. CLARK, Mr. Lantaff, you asked for the anticipated table of organization-and by that you mean staffing pattern? Mr. LANTAFF. Evidently you don't have that. Mr. CLARK. You don't want that in 48 hours? Mr. LANTAFF. What we want is the number of personnel that will be transferred now working on the functions that will be transferred. In other words, say we have a thousand people working on Voice of America and we have a thousand people working on information exchange, and a thousand people working on publications, in State now. Well, those are all being transferred. So, you will have transferred to your agency 3,000 people there. Mr. CLARK. I understand, sir. Mr. LANTAFF. All right. (The information requested appears as an appendix to the testimony.) Mr. CLARK. Could I make, Mr. Chairman, one point? Mr. BROWNSON. Yes. Mr. CLARK. I want to be sure the record is straight, if I might, and that is this question of administration, housekeeping, security, and so forth. The IIA, as part of the Department of State, has naturally used the Department's facilities not only in this country, but abroad. That means the Department's budget office, its personnel systems, its procurement, and so forth; but the IIA has paid for that. Mr. LANTAFF. Sure, you will still do that on a reimbursable basis; will you not? Mr. CLARK. We may, or whichever is the less expensive method of operating; but there are six-hundred-odd jobs in Washington and some overseas paid for now out of our budget; people working in the Department of State. So, when we perform those services ourselves as a separate agency there need not be any expansion in those jobs. That is the point you are asking? Mr. LANTAFF. Of course, you approach that from the standpoint of your own agency, which we are asked to create here, and let's assume now, the State Department has a man in the field and he spends threefourths of his time working for State and an eighth of his time working for MSA, and an eighth of his time working for you. Now, if you go ahead and set up your own housekeeping functions, it would seem employ another man to do your job. Mr. CLARK. As one who has suffered under these problems, sir, may I say we have no intention of setting up a separate man without committing the Department to anything. Mr. LANTAFF. Of course, you can't set up an eighth of a man. You employ another man to do your job. Mr. CLARK. We have tried to figure out what an eighth of a man costs. We have gone to that extent, sir, in trying to avoid duplication. Mr. LANTAFF. If you find out, let me know. I would be interested. Mr. BROWNSON. If Mr. Lantaff will yield at that point Mr. LANTAFF. Yes. Mr. BROWNSON. We have gotten into this budget problem, and while we are there I think it is only fair to tell you, Dr. Johnson, that some of the members of the Appropriations Subcommittee that have been handling this matter, both on the majority and the minority side, have come to me and they have expressed the great worry and apprehension as to how these appropriations are going to be handled in the future, and I think what they are referring to is contained in your prepared statement at the bottom of page 6, where you say: Beginning with fiscal year 1955, it is expected that the new Information Agency will submit to the Congress its own appropriation estimate for the conduct of the Agency's responsibilities as defined in plan No. 8; that the Department of State will similarly present its separate estimates of requirements to support Department of State responsibilities as outlined in the plan and to support the educational exchange functions which it retains; and that the Foreign Operations Administration estimates for fiscal year 1955 will contain no request for funds to operate USIA-type information programs. Now, I am wondering if this thing isn't going to result in a great deal of confusion in the Appropriations Committees here in Congress, a viewpoint which has certainly been expressed, I understand, by both the ranking majority and the ranking minority member of the subcommittee who must cope with this situation. Dr. JOHNSON. Well, I think it will be a little difficult. Particularly Dr. Conant has come up and defended the appropriation for Germany and Ambassador Thompson for Austria, and we are asked to ask for money from the Appropriations Committee which is then given to State to take care of the exchange programs. I think it is rather complicated, and we're supposed to get some money from MSA. I think originally we were to get 11 million, which is a reduction from 20 million. I think that is what they spend-I am not sure of this 20 million figure on information, and then I was told it would be 7 million, or seven million six. Now I understand we just have to do the work without being paid for it. It is somewhat complicated, but I think Mr. Finan might be able to handle that better than I can. Is he here? Mr. BROWNSON. We can go into that. We are going to have him again just as soon as you are through, Doctor. Dr. JOHNSON. I see. |