history before. The Senator does not care to go into ancient history, but I can give you some concrete examples of what we had before we had the National Maritime Union.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do we not concede that the Maritime Union is a good thing as you have pictured it? Now we are here to formulate a law which will wipe out defects, if there are any, and make conditions better so that we can go forward with this great enterprise.

Mr. WHALEN. Senator, as I visualize the thing, there is no need of any more laws at this time. The hysteria that has been built up in America by these shipowners through paid propaganda, over the radio and in the newspapers, is building the people's mind up for legislation in the interest of the shipowner. Whether this is known. to the Senators who are pushing this bill, I think the facts lead us to believe that this is so.

The National Maritime Union has definitely got some pretty hard rules for the members to follow. We do not ask the officers any more to fire them for drinking. We fire them; and when we fire them we put them on the beach for 90 days.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that mean that you are going to take away from the master whatever legal or traditional rights he has?

Mr. WHALEN. No. How could we take the rights away from the master of a vessel?

The CHAIRMAN. You have not tried to do that?

Mr. WHALEN. Never, to my knowledge, even in the ridiculous Algic case, although they tried to prove we did.

This is why the shipowners do not want strong, well-disciplined union men on their ships. In the past when a man would make his report to the Department of Steamboat Inspectors, he would be fired. But today the National Maritime Union encourages the reports of any violation of the law, and we are strong enough to protect his job in doing this American act.

We know what the intent of this bill is and we know that it is not intended to keep Congress moving, because the gentleman who drew it up made one great mistake. He did not incorporate in the bill that when a man signed on a ship he would have to die on the ship because he would have no right to quit. I can visualize what would happen if 75,000 seamen happened to take it into their heads to live up to their constitutional right, and quit their jobs all together on the same day. We seamen and we workers in the C. I. O.

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). What do you mean by the right to quit? The right to quit while you are on the ship, the right to sit down and not work?

Mr. WHALEN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the right now to quit?

Mr. WHALEN. We have the right to quit.

The CHAIRMAN. Then what do you mean-that we are trying to do something to interfere with your right to quit? You have your legal rights now. If you mean the right to sit down on the ship, that is another thing, is it not? Do you believe in that right?

Mr. WHALEN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe in the right to have a sit-down strike on a ship?

Mr. WHALEN. I believe in the right to strike.

The CHAIRMAN. On the ship, on the high seas?

Mr. WHALEN. On the high seas? A man would be insane to do that.

you not?

The CHAIRMAN. You believe in your right to do it, do Mr. WHALEN. No, sir. That never has come up in the argument at all, at sea. You do not strike at sea. You could not get any demands granted at sea. You would have to be in a port to get some demands granted.

Senator VANDENBERG. Do you believe in the right to strike in a foreign port?

Mr. WHALEN. We had the right many, many years ago to quit when we wanted to in any foreign port.

Senator VANDENBERG. In other words, you mean you believe in the right to sit down in a foreign port and tie the ship up there? Mr. WHALEN. I believe we have the right to quit a ship in any port in the world. That is our right.

The CHAIRMAN. To leave the ship?

Mr. WHALEN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Not to sit down on the ship?

Mr. WHALEN. To sit down on the ship.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the right in any port in the world to

leave the ship?

Mr. WHALEN. To quit the ship?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. WHALEN. Right.

Senator VANDENBERG. We are not arguing about that.

The CHAIRMAN. We all admit that. That is the law. But have you the right to sit down on the deck and not work?

Mr. WHALEN. I do not believe we have ever tried that. I do not believe there was ever a sit-down strike in any foreign port. But we believe we have the same rights in foreign ports that we have in any American port.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; to leave the ship.

Mr. WHALEN. Any right. That has got to be decided, as to whether a sit-down strike is legal or not. They are pushing this around in court for some time. As an American citizen I believe that we should live up to the law, and until this is settled by law I say that I could not answer whether it is right or not, because even the judges have not decided that.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any instances where there have been a sit-down strike on a ship?

Mr. WHALEN. Yes; I have engineered a lot of them.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you consider that that is legal?

Mr. WHALEN. Yes; I do. I think many judges think it is legal, too. Some judges disagree.

The CHAIRMAN. You think that anywhere in the world you would have a right to do that?

Mr. WHALEN. Anywhere in the world. An American, as long as he is on an American ship, should have an American right. It makes no difference what port he is in, as long as the ship is in a safe harbor. I would ask the American consul to give me my rights as an American citizen if I were in Paris or anywhere else. I should demand my rights as an American citizen; and certainly when I am on an American ship I am on American territory.

Senator VANDENBERG. Suppose an American ship on a voyage lands at Habana, and suppose the captain has posted a notice that

the ship is to sail at 6 o'clock. Suppose that at 6 o'clock one of the crew is still ashore and has broken his shore leave. Suppose the captain proceeds to sail without him, and the delegate notifies him that the crew will not work the ship unless he remains there waiting for this man to appear. Do you approve of that?

Mr. WHALEN. No, sir; I do not. That is stupid, in my opinion. But if such a thing did happen, which I would not approve of, nevertheless it is not illegal. There is no danger connected with it, any more than if he was going to sail from New York to Habana.

Senator VANDENBERG. There is the danger of completely disrupting the American merchant marine if they cannot have regular sailing schedules.

Mr. WHALEN. I think, Senator, that such things as you have brought out there are good points to argue on.

Senator VANDENBERG. I think you would get a great deal further in washing up this situation if you and your group would as freely concede when you are wrong as we concede when the shipowner is

wrong.

Mr. WHALEN. I can probably clarify in the Senator's mind why we come here. When we come here we are skeptical

Senator VANDENBERG. I don't blame you a bit for that.

Mr. WHALEN. We are uneducated men. We know what we are coming up against here. We come up against some of the highest type of lawyers there are in the country, men that have been in politics. They can tangle us all up very easily. So we are skeptical. We come in and see Ira Campbell always around, and representatives of the big shipowners here, and we are skeptical. I think we have a right

to be.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Maloney, are you a lawyer?

Senator MALONEY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you, Senator Ellender?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator at your right is the only lawyer here. The other members of this committee are not lawyers. So far as that particular criticism is concerned, you can trust us.

Senator ELLENDER. As a matter of fact, I am not a member of this committee. I am a member of the Labor Committee.

Mr. WHALEN. I believe we have a right to be skeptical. I know we belong to a class of men that have nothing; and I have no fear of being contradicted in making this statement. Even the President agrees that a few are running the country and would put us in under the same methods of organized labor that they have in Germany and Italy. Big business would do that to us tomorrow if we did not have progressives here in Washington. We know that. That is why we are skeptical, Senator. It is not that we do not want to trust you, but we do not know just exactly what is going on in your mind.

On the school question, I agree with what was brought up here this morning. I believe that the Commission should set up a subcommittee and educate the men that are going to sea. I do not believe that Mr. Emerson brought that out as clearly as we see it.

We believe, Senators, that men going to sea are somewhat like myself-they have never had a chance to go to school. Education and training never hurt anybody. But we think we should have something to say about the training. We say we represent the seamen, although the American Federation of Labor will say they represent more sea

men. They can say that if they want to. We have got the facts to prove that we do. We want people on that board. We want people taken from the ranks of the seamen to train seamen. We do not want the jingoist and the Army and the Navy to be training them. I am an ex-service man. I never learned anything about sociology in the Army. They teach you how to keep your rifle clean and how to pitch a tent, and the like of that. We want to teach the American seamen what it is to be an American, to know what the laws of the country are and how to live up to them. We believe that the schools should teach seamanship, engineering navigation, but not under the strict discipline of the Navy or the Coast Guard or under the nautical schools of Massachusetts and Nantucket.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want such a training school to be under the same discipline that you would have in any school of law or chemistry or

Mr. WHALEN (interposing). Yes. A man is not hung up by his thumbs if he refuses to go to a class today; but after certain refusals it is evident that he is not interested, and a university usually expels such a man, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We have got that point. What is your next one?

Mr. WHALEN. The next is on the subsidizing of ships and the building of ships in foreign quarters.

The CHAIRMAN. You have declared yourself very positively on that subject through other witnesses, and we have a very sympathetic committee.

Mr. WHALEN. That will be all, then, Senators. Thank you.

Senator MALONEY. Do you believe in a subsidy to shipowners? Mr. WHALEN. I believe in a subsidy when the subsidy is used as a subsidy. I don't believe in subsidies for high wages.

Senator MALONEY. Neither do I; but you believe in it in principle? Mr. WHALEN. In principle; yes, sir.

Senator MALONEY. If it is honestly handled?

Mr. WHALEN. Yes; to keep the ship up and to see that the food and living conditions and wages are kept up to a standard.

(The witness withdrew from the committee table.)

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH SMITH, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN SEAMEN, INC.

The CHAIRMAN. Give your name and background for the record, Mr. Smith.

Mr. SMITH. My name is Joseph Smith.

The CHAIRMAN. You are here representing whom?

Mr. SMITH. I am president of the National Association of American Seamen.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a union?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not affiliated with the American Federation of Labor or the C. I. O.?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Independent.

As

Gentlemen, before I start on this bill here, I just want to give you a little background of what I have done for the American seamen. I understand, the National Maritime Union wants credit for this, and the International Seamen's Union wants credit for it. In 1933 we

organized the National Association of American Seamen. During that time I testified before the Committee on Immigration and Naturalization, on the Bland bill, and that was passed. I testified before Congressman Dickstein's committee on two different occasions, and I had several Nazis fired for activities on United States vessels. I testified before Senator Black's air-mail and ship-subsidy committee and supplied Senator Black with specific information, and during the mail investigation I supplied valuable information to the United States district attorney in the southern district of New York.

All during 1933 and 1934 it was I who fought for a code for the American seamen and had it put into effect. There were six charter members under the N. R. A. and I happened to be one of the six. I have clippings and letters here from the N. R. A. from Mr. Roosevelt, and so on and so forth, with regard to a hearing for the American seamen. Finally we got a hearing and the code was passed.

Senator MALONEY. What is your present position?

Mr. SMITH. I am unemployed. I cannot make a ship on account of the National Maritime Union. When Mr. Curran came off the California I happened to have a little article in the Journal which they pushed a little further and said it was a Communist move to get control of the International Seamen's Union

Senator MALONEY. What organization do you belong to now? Mr. SMITH. My organization is still in existence, the National Association of American Seamen.

Senator DONAHEY. What is its numerical strength?

Mr. SMITH. Right now we have not very many members. They cannot make a job on a ship unless they join the National Maritime Union or the International Seamen's Union.

Senator MALONEY. Are you associated with the C. I. O. now?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Senator MALONEY. Are you at odds with the C. I. O.?

Mr. SMITH. Not exactly. I am not at odds with anybody right now. Senator MALONEY. Are they at odds with you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. I can't make a job. I was told they would blackball me for 99 years on account of giving Mr. Curran a blast in this paper in 1936.

Senator MALONEY. What did you say about Mr. Curran?

Mr. SMITH. I didn't say a thing about him, only what the Journal put in there that it was a Communist move.

Senator MALONEY. Did you charge him with communism, or does he charge you with it?

Mr. SMITH. No; I did not charge him at all. I said it was a Communist move to get control of the union. I based my statement on a letter I received from the secretary of the Marine Workers' Industrial Union, a Communist organization.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he tell you?

Mr. SMITH. He wanted to send representatives to our union at that time, to have something to say to our members.

The CHAIRMAN. This organization was a communistic organization?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it is the Maritime Council of the city of New York, comprised of licensed officers, radio operators, and so forth.

I cannot make a ship, and the shipowners are just as much guilty as the others. They told me, "I don't want you." I asked why. They said, "You are always starting investigations."