The CHAIRMAN. Our position is this: The C. I. O. people come here and say, "No; we must not have mediation until we are in the saddle and until we are strongly entrenched."

Miss Perkins came here and sat where you are sitting now, and said: "Perhaps in 2 or 3 years we may do it."

Now comes Joe Ryan, who says, "No; we cannot have any labor regulation now.'

Do you know what that is going to lead to? There is a growing sentiment in Congress toward Government ownership of ships.

Mr. RYAN. I still think that would pay us good wages.

The CHAIRMAN. do not know. As far as the old time beliefs of the union are concerned, with Government ownership you would be pretty well up against it, would you not?

Mr. RYAN. Of course we have had our experience with it. But we believe we would be able to maintain wages under any system except the National Labor Relations Board.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you are right; I think we have a new era here, so far as wages are concerned, and that capital is no longer going to be powerful enough to dominate the laboring man and to lower wages. I do not think we need fear that, because we have a new conception and a new opinion regarding labor, in the United States. But suppose as a result of the turmoil and the discord, Congress should say: "If we cannot do it by any other way, we will build these ships."

Mr. RYAN. That is pretty hard to ask an organization that is endeavoring to get along.

The CHAIRMAN. I know it is, but I want to throw out the hint to you. You know, you sense things as you sit around, as we do, here in the Senate and in Congress. And I can just sense a growing sentiment, that now capital has failed to improve the merchant marine, and labor is in such a turmoil that there is no hope of peace; and so let's throw it all out of the window, and build and operate the ships as Government properties.

Now, to me, that is terrible. I have always been opposed to it, from the depths of my soul. But at the same time, any one of us who believes in an American merchant marine and in the necessity of having an American merchant marine, faces the necessity of saying to himself, "Well, no matter what the old-time conviction is, perhaps this is the only way."

Mr. RYAN. Would not that place the Government in competition with private enterprise?

The CHAIRMAN. What does private enterprise mean now, so far as transoceanic transportation is concerned? We have only 41 ships under 10 years of age. Just think of it-only 41. And you know that so far as these coastal ships and intercoastal ships and transoceanic ships are concerned, we have gone down, now, until we have today the situation where the British at this moment have 704 modern ships, 10 years of age or less, totaling 4,704,000 tons; Germany, 132 ships; Japan, 115; France, 64; Italy, 42; and the United States, 41. And as regards tonnage, one-tenth of the tonnage of the British ships.

Mr. RYAN. You mean those 41 ships are owned by private companies?

The CHAIRMAN. Those 41 ships are owned by private companies, but some have loans upon them from the Federal Government.

Mr. RYAN. Most all the companies get loans from the Federal Government?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. So it is not altogether a question of the Government going into competition with private concerns.

Mr. RYAN. I see that.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact there is no competition, as against the Government. But if the Government were to stop subsidizing and then foreclose its mortgages upon American shipping, the Government would be in the business.

Mr. RYAN. The Government then would have pretty nearly all of the 41 ships, wouldn't it?

The CHAIRMAN. There would be left, outside, only a very few ships. in overseas trade. For instance, the Grace Line has a few, and the United Fruit Line has a few, and a few other lines that I might mention. But the number of ships that can continue if privately owned, in the true sense, is just a handful.

Now, that is just exactly what we are up against. You see that makes a very black picture. It is a black picture from your standpoint; it is a black picture from the American Federation of Labor's standpoint and the C. I. O.'s standpoint. And that, together with other troubles, certainly makes a black cloud over shipping.

Mr. RYAN. Well, it is a very gloomy picture to look at. On the other hand, we have to keep in mind our birthright so far as the labor movement is concerned.

But instead of our having to refer to a National Railway Board, perhaps we can sell to our membership the recommendation and the idea of settling our affairs through a National Adjustment Commission; because on that Commission they would have equal representation. But if we have to go before a board that does not know anything about it, I am sure the men would object.

For instance, I am sure that you, Mr. Chairman, and the members of the committee remember the Board that was set up in 1919. Professor Ripley was selected as the fifth member, and the other members were T. V. O'Connor, Joseph Ryan, Fred Toppin, and Oakley Wood. Two of those four represented each side, and Professor Ripley was supposed to be a neutral man. President Wilson, of revered memory, said there should be no adjustment of wages for 3 months, until we "got back to normalcy," and all the words we learned at that time.

He made a proclamation to the effect that there should be no adjustment of wages for a period of 3 months. And just at that time our agreements were expiring on September 30. The National Adjustment Commission sat during the month of December 1919 to decide what our wages would be from 1919 to 1920. Mr. O'Connor and myself put forth our comments. We were getting 65 cents an hour for a 44hour week, and a dollar for all overtime, and including meals. We were looking for an increase to 80 cents an hour and $1.20 for all overtime. For several days we came before the hearings in the Produce Exchange; and then our committees came in; and we got into the executive board session, with the four of us, and argued it all. And Professor Ripley kept saying, "I admit the story told by the longshoremen, I admit all that. But I have to keep in mind the President's proclamation."

So finally, at the Harvard Club, where the five of us were meeting as Professor Ripley's guests, he said, "I have a suggestion. You want

80 cents and a dollar and 20 cents; the employers want 65 cents. I will give the President's proclamation every consideration, and say that in 3 months we will reopen this argument. But in view of the fact that the men have put up such a convincing case and need immediate relief, I will vote for 5 cents and 10 cents; in other words I will vote for 70 cents an hour and a dollar and 10 cents an hour."

Mr. Toppin and Mr. Wood saw immediately that if that went over for 3 months, the case would never be opened, and it would get the men for 70 cents and a dollar and 10 cents, for another year. O'Connor said, "What do you think of it, Joe?"

Mr.

I said, "It is suicide. Let's go back with 65 cents and a dollar, to our men, and tell them that the President's proclamation has set it at that, and to work for 3 months with a guaranty of reopening it after 3 months."

We pleaded with Mr. Wood and Mr. Toppin, and said, "The men are going to say that this is just a sop that is thrown to them, and there will be a secession movement."

He said, "Well, you voted to accept the decision of the National Adjustment Commission."

We said, "Sure we did."

We pleaded and pleaded; and finally Professor Ripley and Mr. Toppin and Mr. Wood voted for the 70 cents and dollar and 10 cents; and Mr. O'Connor and I dissented.

And the next day there was a dissention on the Chelsea piers where I was working, and in Hoboken, and it continued until finally it cost a million dollars. We said to the men: "We got the worst of it. It is going up, again, in 3 months. But Professor Ripley felt that you were entitled to a little increase."

They said, "It is a Woolworth award-5 and 10."

There was no strike, but it took us nearly 3 months to get the men back to work. So they opened up consideration, again, in 2 months, and gave the men 80 cents and a dollar and 20 cents.

I think the National Adjustment Commission made that mistake. But I think we can convince the men to go along with a National Adjustment Commission, to adjust wages, sooner than we could get them to go before some board. This National Labor Relations Board has so sickened our men that they do not want to hear about any more boards.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Ryan, this matter has reached a point and is so serious that the top men in the labor organizations simply must give it immediate consideration. The situation is such, today, that if I were to advise your group, I would say that this matter should be brought to the attention of Mr. Green. Insofar as the C. I. O. is concerned, we have had only some young men here, but no one with any authority, so far as I can see. But if Mr. Lewis is interested in the perpetuity of the American merchant marine, he has to give some serious thought to this. Because we are facing chaos on the one hand, and Government ownership on the other.

Mr. RYAN. Senator, Vice President Hasselgren, of our group, called my attention to the fact that this proposed act would not apply to foreign ships, would it?

The CHAIRMAN. Foreign ships?

Mr. RYAN. Yes.

Mr. HARRY R. HASSELGREN. We work for foreign ships as well as for American ships. Well, we would go in, in September of any given year, and serve notice on the employers that we were ready to discuss agreements to take the place of the ones expiring September 30. We would meet with the committee, and the American owners would say, "Throw that to the mediation board." The foreign ship owners would say, "You want a dollar and 10 cents instead of 85 cents?" And they would consider it. If we got that from the foreign lines, how could we keep our men working on the American lines?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know how far we could go in establshing rates that would solve the various points. I suppose the Secretary of State would immediately come down and say that we were about to have war, perhaps.

Mr. RYAN. Mr. Chairman and Senators, you just said that the leaders of the American Federal of Labor, including President Green, and the leaders of the C. I. O. including President Lewis, should give this some serious consideration

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Well, I will say this: The American Federation of Labor has given the committee more consideration than the other group has; because we have had direct representatives who, we know, are representing them, from the American Federation. of Labor. But on the other side we have usually had some young chaps who perhaps are legislative representatives.

Mr. RYAN. Senators, I remember when Senator Copeland was sitting in the hearing on the Dollar Line, several years ago, when I first came down here. And with your vast experience, Senator Copeland, and with the interest you have always taken in the American merchant marine, you know that one of the reasons we have endorsed you and fought for you is because we believe you are the champion of the American merchant marine.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe the American Federation of Labor has passed a resolution commending me as a friend of maritime labor. However, I have since learned that I am a dangerous man, seeking to destroy American maritime labor.

Mr. RYAN. Well, you have said that you believe, from all your experience, that the proposition of the American Federation of Labor is a sound one?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I believe it is.

Mr. Ryan. But on the other hand, you say you believe it will not pass?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I say that, too.

Mr. RYAN. Then there must be a lot of people in the Senate and in the House who have just as little interest in the development of the American merchant marine as some of our labor unions that are carrying on this. Because regardless of the C. I. O. or the A. F. of L., we do not expect that the Senate or the House is going to interfere. And when you or your committee go before them and say that this proposition of Mr. Kennedy's is opposed by everyone interested except us, and the American Federation of Labor proposition is a sound one, in your judgment, then those people should have sufficient interest in the development of the American merchant marine that they should vote for the American Federation of Labor plan-not because the A. F. of L. introduced it, but because you, as chairman, believe it is sound.

The CHAIRMAN. At the same time, however, here is the fact; and every newspaper man knows it: The minute you talk about modifying the National Labor Relations Board Act you are just up against a brick wall. Someone in the Judiciary Committee tried to get an investigation; and there has been discussion everywhere about it. I know that the feeling is that you must not touch that act.

Mr. RYAN. You say "the minute you mention it": Isn't the Senate interested? Would big business come down here and endorse the Wagner Labor Relations Act as it is being conducted at the present time?

The CHAIRMAN. Of course the real person to see is the President of the United States. He can do it for you.

Mr. RYAN. Well, I shouldn't think that would be necessary.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, you should go see him.

Mr. RYAN. Anybody who knows our organization knows we have the best agreement for longshoremen in the world. We went into Canada the other day, and we think we are going to have it by tonight, and get men a 15 cents an hour increase, and so forth. So everybody knows I am not a company-union man. But at the same time we have preached to our men, just as Charley Logan said, down at Galveston: "We have gotten the best agreement we can. Now go out and give service."

Now, all these company men admit they are afraid; because if they oppose Miss Perkins or Mrs. Herrick they are going to be punished. The CHAIRMAN. That is not where the affair ends.

Mr. RYAN. Where is it?

The CHAIRMAN. There is not a master on the ships today, who dares assert himself.

Mr. RYAN. I know that.

The CHAIRMAN. He is facing a committee on the ship; and he knows that if he offends the committee, they will say, back home, "We don't want that master anymore;" and the spineless shipowners will say, "That is too bad," and then the shipmaster will have to look for another job.

Mr. RYAN. You say "the spineless shipowners:" I met a fellow the other day, from the Grace Line, who said that it cost his company just a cool million dollars. And how long can they stand it? He said, "If your organization is broken up, we are sunk." And he is a fellow who came to break the strike on us, about 5 years ago.. The Grace Line brought him from the Pacific coast. And he told us that if our organization is disbanded, the steamship interests are sunk.

Why wouldn't they be spineless, if steamship men can be brought down to a meeting at 7 o'clock at night, and then Mrs. Herrick comes down from her office and says, "Sorry, gentlemen, it is off for 3 months" -just because her boys had not done their work on it before.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, all these things point to the same end I have told you.

Mr. RYAN. Is this Railway Mediation Board going to settle all this? The CHAIRMAN. I don't know about that.

Mr. RYAN. Suppose we do agree to this, and suppose we say that in the interests of everything, we will agree to go along with this plan, and then the men say, "We will not

The CHAIRMAN. Who says that?

Mr. RYAN. Suppose the ships' personnel say that? Suppose we agreed to abide by this. It is voluntary, isn't it?