Mr. CANNON. Has cooperation ever been had from private sources, such as individuals and corporations, in the construction of these bridges?

Mr. MACDONALD. No; unless a State had some of the funds supplied to it through private sources. If a State has funds to meet the Federal-aid funds, we do not investigate the sources. lieve it is all good money if the State has it under its jurisdiction.

We be

I shall not go into a summary of the work of the bureau or the details for each State, Mr. Chairman, because we published that information in the report of the Chief of the Bureau of Public Roads for the fiscal year 1925.

Mr. HUDSPETH. I notice, Mr. MacDonald, in this statement that in the State of my distinguished friend, Mr. Robsion, there have been only 732 miles completed. Is that correct?

Mr. ROBSION. I certainly would not question the figures of the director of public roads.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Did you initiate projects before there was this Federal aid?

Mr. ROBSION. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUDSPETH. It occurred to me that I had traveled over more mileage than that when I was in his State.

Mr. ROBSION. You must have been feeling very good when you traveled through that country. [Laughter.]

Mr. HUDSPETH. I do, when I travel through that country.

Mr. MACDONALD. The details of the mileage of Federal-aid roads completed during the fiscal year 1925, by types of construction, and a detailed summary of the whole program up to the close of that period, also by types of construction, are covered by Table 13 on page 23 of the report of the chief of bureau, and Table 15 on page 25.

(The tables referred to are as follows:)

Mileage of Federal-aid roads completed during the fiscal year 1925, by types of construction

1 Negative figures caused by revision of records when final vouchers were paid on projects the type

which was changed after ratifica_ion of project agreement.

Mileage of Federal-aid roads completed during the fiscal year 1925, by types of construction-Continued

Negative figures caused by revision of records when final vouchers were paid on projects the type of which was changed after ratification of project agreement.

Mileage of total Federal-aid program as of June 30, 1925, by types of

Mileage of total Federal-aid program as of June 30, 1925, by types of construction--Continued

Mr. MACDONALD. The question is frequently asked as to the progress in the improvement of the Federal-aid highway system. It is a difficult question to answer, but I shall attempt to place the situation before this committee.

The total allowable mileage in the 7 per cent system would be approximately 200,000 miles. The total actually approved for that system up to July 1, 1925, was 178,797 miles. The total mileage improved and under construction with Federal aid on February 1 was 63,239 miles, and we estimate that there have been improved by States without Federal aid about 65,000 miles. That would represent a balance unimproved of 50,558 miles.

Mr. HOLADAY. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chairman?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. HOLADAY. When you say "have been improved," what do you mean by that? Have they been hard-surfaced or just graded or graveled, or what?

Mr. MACDONALD. I think your question is answered by the schedule to which I referred, under types of construction.

Mr. HOLADAY. And that has been placed in the record?

Mr. MACDONALD, Yes.

Mr. HOLADAY. All right.

Mr. MACDONALD. Sixty-seven and one-half per cent of all Federalaid projects are of what we call low type. They are of graded and drained, sand-clay or gravel construction.

This system was designated in 1921, and it was the belief at that time that within 10 years or 12, perhaps, it would be possible to make at least some improvement of the entire system.

It now appears that it will be possible within that time to get over the whole system, or practically the whole system as now approved, with some type of improvement, but I wish to place emphasis upon the fact that in order to move the traffic, in order to get improvement of the roads that would allow the traffic to use them, it has been necessary to build large mileages of the low type roads. Where this has been done the low-type road is recognized either as

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merely a first stage of construction to be followed, as increasing traffic demands, by further improvement, or frankly as an emergency

measure.

So, repeating the same figures that I have just referred to, 672 per cent of the mileage improved has been of the low type, and we can not consider those roads as completed. The contractors between the States and the Bureau provide for all the graded and drained roads to be surfaced as soon as found become available. It will also be necessary to further improve many miles of the sand-clay and the gravel construction. In such cases we have been operating so far on the policy of providing the minimum improvement that would allow traffic to move. There are many miles of the projects built with Federal aid-a very large percentage of these low types and also of the intermediate types-which will have to be widened and strengthened as funds before available. Also, there is a very large mileage built by the States without Federal aid that will have to be widened and strengthened. That is particularly true of the macadam roads built in the East prior to the time paved types were generally adopted.

Mr. ALMON. What would be the date of that?

Mr. MACDONALD. That date would be not earlier than 1920.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask a question here? Is the macadam road considered by your department as a proper hard-surfaced road? I mean, a valuable one?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you explain to the committee briefly the life of such a road and something of the expenditure in construction and how much of the road can be utilized in other construction if the surface was changed?

Mr. MACDONALD. May I complete the statement that I was making just a moment ago, and then I will answer your question.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. MACDONALD. In operating on the policy of progressive construction by which the roads are advanced from the graded and drained type up to higher types, it has been the purpose to get as large a mileage as possible of roads that could be used, but, as a consequence, there is a large percentage of the low and intermediate types to be advanced to higher types, strengthened and widened; there are many railroad grade crossings to be eliminated, and occasionally it will be necessary to eliminate highway grade crossing; there are safety devices and precautionary and directional signs to be installed; many large bridges to be built, particularly of the larger sizes; and, in many cases, it will be necessary to get very much wider rights of way.

In other words, we can say that we have only begun the work of building an adequately improved system of highways in this country; and, with the reduction of the State and local funds for which the credit of the State or county or other local division has been pledged, the Federal-aid funds will become more and more a factor in preserving a construction program and in carrying forward the completion of this major highway system in an adequate

manner.

I think this statement is necessary, Mr. Chairman, to bring out the facts squarely, so that there will be no impression that we are about done or well along on our way in this building of roads.

The final improvement of a system of 200,000 miles of main roads for this country is a long way off, because it will always be in process of construction and improvement just as the railroads are still in that status. It is true that the railroads put traffic through some 60 to 70 years ago, but ever since that time it has been necessary to make improvements as traffic increased and as heavier units were used, so that the railroads are in a state of constantly advancing to a more adequate type, and so it is with the highways. That, in my judgment, is the attitude of mind with which we ought to approach this question of highway building.

Mr. HUDSPETH. May I ask you a question there? Are the States keeping up the repair of the roads as is required by the Federal Government?

Mr. MACDONALD. In all cases the States are adequately maintaining the roads, except where they are still dependent upon local subdivisions to do the work.

That is one of the points I wish to speak about at some length, because it is a very important point in our administration.

Mr. HUDSPETH. That is what occurred to me in asking the question.

Mr. ALMON. You will discuss that question under the head of maintenance?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. PEERY. As I recall your testimony before, you stated you were proceeding upon the program that contemplated a completion of the highway system in something like 11 years.

Mr. MACDONALD. Well, if I used the word "completion," I wish to withdraw that and substitute the word "improvement."

Mr. PEERY. In other words, you were proceeding upon the program, as I understand, which contemplated getting a highway system in a certain number of years provided you got the money to meet that plan?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir; that we would get over that entire mileage with an improvement within that time; and we are still working on that basis.

Mr. PEERY. And your statement now is that it will not be completed for all time? In other words, you will have to rebuild from time to time, but that plan would probably contemplate less money after you get over it?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir. I should have made that statement, that it does not mean that we will have to continue indefinitely with as high expenditures on this system as appear desirable for a while.

Mr. BRAND. Does the United States Government spend any money on a road after it is once built?

Mr. MACDONALD. Not as maintenance. We spend money on roads to bring the roads to a higher type and to reconstruct them.

Mr. BRAND. Is it not hard to determine what that word " reconstruct" means?