the terms of the law, other industries may come in and ask for the same thing. But certainly it is of obvious advantage to the consumer. That is our primary concern, and that is the reason why we have indorsed it.

Senator KENDRICK. I think we might very well, in passing upon this legislation, be concerned as to two questions in connection with the effect of the law. One is that the law shall not operate to prevent the sale and even the increased consumption, if necessary, of a perfectly wholesome product that can not be designated as premium. Doctor CAMPBELL. That is right.

Senator KENDRICK. That is an important point; because it would automatically, as I believe, deliver this product as described to the consumer at the price for which it ought to be sold.

Doctor CAMPBELL. That is right. It would be decidedly uneconomic, I think, as I said a moment ago, to employ any type of stigmatizing term to indicate the low-grade product which might defeat the very purpose of this measure, and prevent its sale. Senator KENDRICK. That would not do at all.

Senator FRAZIER. Has the department come to any conclusion as to how they will designate the high grade, the first grade?

Doctor CAMPBELL. Not yet, Mr. Chairman. This matter was brought up only very recently; and when the proponents of this measure, the canners themselves, indicated their intent to bring about the introduction of the measure, they came to the department and discussed it, and asked what the department's reaction was; and the department answered substantially as I have undertaken to say to you what its position on the measure would be. Since then they have not considered at all any of the standards for the various types or classes of canned-food products, or even the nature of the designation that should be employed in the event that this measure does become effective. If and when it passes, of course, the department will instantly take up that question.

Senator CAPPER. Then, Doctor Campbell, I take it that the department has a favorable reaction toward the proposed legislation? Doctor CAMPBELL. Quite so.

Senator CAPPER. Do you know of any group of consumers or any business concerns who would be directly affected by the proposed legislation who are opposing the legislation or anything in the nature of the plan embodied in the bill?

Doctor CAMPBELL. I know of none. I have heard none. I have heard expressions that would indicate the desirability of legislation of this sort, and undoubtedly the canners themselves had, and that is probably what has inspired this attempt at this legislation. I can conceive of nobody being adversely affected by the terms of this bill except the canners themselves, and they are themselves coming in and proposing this form of legislation. They undoubtedly are sufficiently in advance of ordinary commercial operations to recognize the benefit from the establishment of these two primary grades which they will have; and since they have asked for it, I can conceive of nobody whom the measure would affect adversely or who would have any real pertinent ground upon which to object to it.

Senator FRAZIER. Will this include canned fish such as salmon? Doctor CAMPBELL. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. It will affect fish?

Doctor CAMPBELL. Yes.

Senator KENDRICK. What about meat products?

Doctor CAMPBELL. They are not included. You see, the meatinspection act operates in the handling of canned meat products in such a definite way that it was not considered desirable or necessary to put meat products in.

Senator FRAZIER. Here is a letter from a salmon packing company, the Point Adams Packing Co. of Hammond, Oreg., in which they suggest that salmon be excepted, the same as canned milk is here. Is not an exception made of canned milk?

Doctor CAMPBELL. Yes; but there is a reason for that exception that to my mind does not obtain with respect to canned salmon, Mr. Chairman.

Canned milk is merely a condensed product, an evaporated product. It is a product from which the moisture has been driven off by evaporation. The only question involved in that is the extent to which the moisture should be taken away in order to entitle it to the name "evaporated" or "condensed milk." There are administrative standards controlling that sort of thing now, expressed in the nature of percentages of fat and of total solids, which are being so universally observed by the canned-milk manufacturers that trade custom has set up a standard for that product just as definitely as it could be done by the terms of the law; and there is no point to undertaking to apply this legislation which goes to the question of quality, and is practicable of application in that way to the various types of canned food products-to canned milk.

Senator FRAZIER. You think, then, that salmon should be included in this amendment of the existing law?

Doctor CAMPBELL. I think it should, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Are there any further questions?

That will be all, Doctor.

Are there any other witnesses here to appear for the bill? If not, are there any opposed to it? Is Mr. Chapin here?

Mr. CHAPIN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF JAY CHAPIN, SECRETARY OF THE ASSOCIATED CORN PRODUCTS MANUFACTURERS

Senator FRAZIER. Give your name and address.

Mr. CHAPIN. My name is Jay Chapin. I am secretary of the Associated Corn Products Manufacturers.

First of all, Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to appear as being opposed to the bill.

Senator FRAZIER. I did not know whether you were opposed to it or not.

Mr. CHAPIN. That I want to make clear. We, as food manufacturers, are interested in any amendment or any consideration that has to do with the pure food law; and through the courtesy of the chairman of the committee our Washington representative was notified that there would be a hearing on this bill, and I thought it desirable to come here and see what was said about it, and perhaps just appear as a witness of record. After hearing what was said, and the arguments pro and con, I should like to have permission to file a brief, and just comment in a general way upon our impressions of the effect that this may have on our industry.

Senator FRAZIER. Very well. Senator CAPPER. Can you indicate here, Mr. Chapin, whether you look with favor on the legislation, or are opposed to it?

Mr. CHAPIN. The general thought that we have and I express this entirely in a way of considering the matter rather than passing an opinion on it is that in the food industry we are quite familiar with, and approve, standards of purity. That was one of the original investigations made before the enactment of the present food and drugs act to determine the purity of products. This particular bill introduces an entirely new phase into the food industry, that of quality; and while I am speaking in a personal way, perhaps, and I am entirely in accord as a consumer with the opportunity to buy butter of 94 points as compared with 92, if I know it, or buy prime beef, nevertheless the matter of quality introduces such a tremendous vista, as it were, into pure food matters, that we would, as I expressed it, like to look around and see just what our viewpoint is on that particular phase of things.

Senator KENDRICK. Have you up to this time reached any conclusion that it would penalize in any way either the consumer or the producer of what we will term the second-grade product?

Mr. CHAPIN. In many lines of the food business grading has been introduced to the advantage of both the producer and the consumer, as stated. Grading, of course, implies discrimination as to quality. At the same time, let us take such things as butter, because that is one of our common products.

Senator KENDRICK. It is not, however, canned, is it?

Mr. CHAPIN. It is not canned, but nevertheless the principle applies there. We have to reason from things that we know about that have been applied successfully.

I might say that perhaps the butter on the market to-day which commands the highest price of any of the butters is that manufactured by the Cooperative Organization of Minnesota, the "Land o' Lakes. They have established a reputation for butter because they are producing the quality; and that is a desirable thing both for the farmers, whom they have stimulated to produce a good quality of butter, and for the consumer, who knows when he buys Land O' Lakes butter that he is getting that superior quality. It is an advantage all along the line.

Senator KENDRICK. Is it not true, if I may interrupt you, that one of the effects of this bill will be to stimulate the production of firstclass products?

Mr. CHAPIN. I think, rightly handled, rightly worded, and rightly administered, that it would.

Senator KENDRICK. Right in connection with that thought, we ought to bear in mind, as it seems to me, the necessity of avoiding any action that would deny to the producer of a somewhat lower grade but just as wholesome product, the opportunity of delivering his product on the market under every advantage; and, also, we should not deny the consumer the opportunity of benefiting by this cheaper product.

Mr. CHAPIN. Quite so. In the case of butter, there are a great many people who are perfectly willing to buy butter that is sold at several cents a pound cheaper, and that satisfies their needs and their pocketbooks.

Essentially, to give you my personal thought in the matter, the matter of determining quality in all classes of foods opens up a tremendous possibility, both for good and for bad. I will put it that way. That is the thought I have that it should be carefully considered as to where we will be led in trying to grade and discriminate in products without knowing just what the net results will be as the law is enforced.

Senator FRAZIER. Of course if this amendment is adopted, I do not suppose it would be possible to prevent any company whose products come under the class described as first grade from advertising to that effect those goods, that the Department of Agriculture has designated their goods as first grade in quality.

Mr. CHAPIN. Quite so. It would be undoubtedly of benefit, and of course they would have the same advantage that every manufacturer of quality goods does to-day. If they are making quality goods, they generally see to it that the public-if they are good merchants knows that the trade-mark means quality and uniformity.

Senator SHIPSTEAD. Is there anything now to protect the consumer on the quality of canned goods, except that he must find out for himself?

Mr. CHAPIN. The Department of Agriculture has issued certain standards which are now in force, as stated in the introductory paragraphs to such publications, for the guidance of the members of the department; and in some kinds of food they are quite well defined, as I remember. In peas they have five grades which are specified at the present time.

Senator SHIPSTEAD. Are these grades noted on the can for the protection of the consumer?

Mr. CHAPIN. That I can not say. I am not directly connected with the canning industry. Perhaps Mr. Campbell could give you information as to that. I do not know either one way or another.

Senator FRAZIER. As I understand, there is nothing in the law at the present time that will compel the canner to designate the quality on the cans.

Mr. CHAPIN. Quite right; yes. That is my understanding.

Senator SHIPSTEAD. Do you know whether or not it is possible, from the standpoint of chemistry and from the standpoint of the Department of Agriculture, to determine the quality of goods definitely, or reasonable definitely?

Mr. CHAPIN. I want to make it clear that I am not at all what might be termed an expert in that respect, and I could not say. I will answer your question, however, and say that as a consumer-and we are all alike in that respect-in the matter of foods we are inclined to consider quality as a matter of firmness of the texture of the vegetables, and the aroma, and things of that sort that psychologically affect the appetite. Whether that can be determined in canning goods or not enough to fix a positive legal differentiation, I can not say. Senator SHIPSTEAD. You know that the Government of the United States now grades the various kinds of grains for the protection of the grower, the protection of the miller, and also the protection of the consumer?

Mr. CHAPIN. Yes, sir.

(At this point Senator McNary and Senator Ransdell returned to the committee room, and Senator McNary resumed the Chair.)

Senator SHIPSTEAD. The various grades affect the price. A man who will produce a high grade of wheat gets a higher price. I think that has been quite generally understood as necessary. I was wondering if it was the intention of this bill to grade canned goods on the same basis in order that there might be some distinction, for the information of the public and the consumer, between high grade and low grade and the intermediate grades between.

Mr. CHAPIN. Your reference to the grading of grain I think is a point well taken; and I thoroughly agree with you that Government standards in grain and Government grading have improved the return to the farmer, and have been a protection to the buyer.

As you are undoubtedly aware, grain is graded by definite, specified standards, which in the case of wheat, we will say, start first with the weight per bushel, and the amount of foreign matter, and the condition of the kernels-definite, written standards of that kind, which are furnished to inspectors located at different points so that they can grade the grain intelligently; and the question of personal judgment does not enter into the matter particularly with the skilled, experienced inspectors. They follow the rules set forth for the grading of the grain.

Whether that same plan can be worked out in connection with this bill, which virtually makes two grades, and specifies the better grade as high quality and the other grade as low quality, I would not undertake to pass upon from my experience and knowledge, because I am not sufficiently familiar with the matter of canned goods.

Senator FRAZIER (to Senator Shipstead). Doctor Campbell, of the Agricultural Department, who testified before you came in, Senator, stated that he thought that could be done, as I understood him.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that conclude your statement, Mr. Chapin? Mr. CHAPIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPPER. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Ketcham of Michigan, a State which has a very large canning business, is interested in this legislation, and is present to-day at the hearing. The CHAIRMAN. We shall be glad to hear from him.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN C. KETCHAM, REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE FOURTH DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN

Representative KETCHAM. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my interest in this measure is, of course, rather direct and personal, because the canning industry has developed very wonderfully in our own State, and has in it great possibilities, particularly in connection with this very vexing problem confronting all friends of agriculture; namely, how to dispose effectively and profitably of surpluses. So I am interested from that angle. I am interested, of course, also from the consumer angle.

As I have looked at this legislation, it seems to me that if the Department of Agriculture can do something to assist the consumer in passing an intelligent judgment upon the products that are offered for sale, that is altogether wholesome.

For instance, if I were going into a store at home, where I trade, and two cans of peas were offered to me, if I could see the contents of those cans I think I could form a fairly intelligent judgment as to

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