Mr. FLAHERTY. Mr. Chairman, the statements made to the President, which you quoted in part, are founded on fact. With President Gainor, of the National Association of Letter Carriers, and President Ryan, of the Railway Mail Association, I signed a joint letter to the President, in which those facts and additional facts were set forth, calling his attention to what we consider to be a very acute labor problem in the Postal Service, a problem that is almost as acute as the railway wage problem, and we asked the President to advise the Congress of those facts.

Unfortunately, the Congress and the public generally do not realize the seriousness of the postal wage problem, due to the fact, I think, that the postal employees do not threaten the use of the strike weapon. I regret to say there are murmurs here and there in the service at the present time, due to the unrest and discontent, to the effect that if relief is not forthcoming by a certain date the men will be forced to resign in concert. I have a resolution here adopted by the clerks and carriers in Sioux City, Iowa-and I cite this merely as an example-saying they can not properly exist on the present wage standards and if relief is not forthcoming they will be forced to resign from the service on or before October 1.

But let me first amplify the statement made to the President that there is great difficulty now in getting sufficient man power in the Postal Service. Primarily, that is the reason, I believe, for the impaired service. I wish to call the committee's attention to the fact that in New York at the present time-and the same is true of Detroit and Chicago, Pittsburgh, and other cities-the Civil Service Commission is holding what they call "perpetual" examinations-that is, examinations every second week-in an effort to get men to enter the Postal Service. There are few applicants; those who pass the examination and qualify remain on the job-to use the common expression-only a short time. The postal labor turnover at the present time is large and is expensive, and until Congress improves the wage and working standards, I do not see how we can get a sufficient amount of labor to properly and efficiently man our Postal Service.

Mr. BYRNES. Mr. Chairman, will you pardon me for interrupting, but I only want to suggest this: Admitting that all that you say-I know that from your familiarity with the legislative machinery you know that this committee can not recommend legislation that would cure the evils you speak of by raising the compensation. Mr. FLAHERTY. I think that this committee

Mr. BYRNES (interposing). We can investigate expenditures or the manner in which funds already appropriated by the Congress have been expended, but granting that the wages now paid are insufficient, the Post Office Committee is charged with that duty, and all of us daily are receiving requests of that character, which we are referring to that committee because it is the only committee that can correct it; this committee can not.

Mr. FLAHERTY. Then, would the committee, in your judgment, have authority to investigate the excessive expenditure of funds for overtime service?

Mr. BYRNES. I am not satisfied that this committee has not the right to investigate any expenditure. It is the Committee on Expenditures, by reason of its name, and it has under the rule the right to investigate the manner in which any funds appropriated by the

Congress are expended, but it has not the right to recommend to the Congress the compensation of employees. I think the committee will agree with me on that. Isn't that your understanding, Mr. Glynn? Mr. GLYNN. I think there is a dispute about that.

The CHAIRMAN. In order that the record may be set forth showing just what the jurisdiction of the committee is, I wish to read article 712, section 36-this speaks of the various functions of committees:

Examinations of the accounts and expenditures of the several departments of the Government and the manner of keeping the same: the economy, justness, and correctness of such expenditures; their conformity with the appropriation laws, the proper application of public money, the security of the Government against unjust and extravagant demands, retrenchment, the enforcement of the payment of money due to the United States, the economy and accountability of public officers, the abolishment of useless officers, the reduction or increase of the pay of officers, shall all be subjects within the jurisdiction of the nine standing committees on the public expenditures in the several departments, as follows.

And then it gives a list of the committees.

Now, at the beginning of this Congress the parliamentarian was referring to this committee all bills introduced relating to wage increases and leave of absence and matters of that kind; the postal employees were reluctant to take up before this committee matters of this kind, because they felt that this committee, having no power to appropriate funds

Mr. BYRNES (interposing). That is what I mean, Mr. Chairman. We have no power to appropriate funds.

The CHAIRMAN. And I might add that the Speaker has ruled that this committee has joint jurisdiction with the Committee on Post, Offices and Post Roads in matters pertaining to wage increases. Mr. BYRNES. Can we appropriate?

The CHAIRMAN. We can not appropriate.

Mr. BYRNES. I was satisfied we could not. That is what I mean. If we can not appropriate, I don't see how we can help these gentlemen in that particular line.

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest, Mr. Flaherty, that in your statement you state that "the eight-hour law is ignored in the larger offices and oppressive labor policies of the postal administrators have given the service a sweatshop reputation." Now, suppose you say something along that line.

Mr. FLAHERTY. That can be substantiated by the fact that the department is having such great difficulty in getting men to enter the service. As I stated, examinations are being held frequently in the larger offices, and there are few, if any, applicants. In the cities of Detroit, Chicago, Akron, and Norfolk and some other places the Post Office Department has had a standing order with the United States Employment Service to send over available labor, and I am told that at some of these places men are sent there with the understanding that they will only be expected to remain in the service until they can get a "decent" job, indicating that the Postal Service's reputation for work and wage standards is so low that it is no longer considered worth while sending a man to be employed there permanently.

But another phase of this, Congressman Byrnes, I think I would like to secure an opinion as to whether this committee would have authority to go into this particular phase of postal employment.

Mr. BYRNES. I think the chairman has read the rule, and it correctly states everything we have the right to go into.

Mr. FLAHERTY. Well, on June 30, 1914, there were 4,006 clerks in the Chicago post office, as compared with 3,792 on June 30, 1919, a decrease of 4.2 per cent in the number of clerks during that five-year period. During the six-year period of June 30, 1913, to June 30, 1919, there was an increase of 78.89 per cent in mail matter. According to accurate overtime data taken by the men in the mailing division there has been an overtime increase of 243.8 per cent from December 31, 1915, to June 30, 1919, or an average of 13 minutes overtime per day for 1915 as compared with one hour and two minutes per day for 1919. I call the committee's attention to that condition. During a period when there was approximately an increase in the amount of mail of 80 per cent there was a decrease in the number of clerks of 4.2 per cent. In short, a less number of men are expected to handle almost double the amount of work. It naturally follows there is overtime imposed. The burdens upon the clerks are heavier, and I think that it is clearly within the jurisdiction of the committee.

Mr. BYRNES. There is no doubt of that. That is a different question entirely. All that I meant by my former statement was the fact that this committee could not appropriate; therefore no matter how anxious we might be to increase compensation, we have no power to appropriate. What you now state is clearly within it, as I see it. Mr. FLAHERTY. Within the scope of the committee?

Mr. BYRNES. Yes. May I ask you this, though? You state that the regular employees were reduced?

Mr. FLAHERTY. The total number of regular employees during that five-year period decreased 4 per cent. There were fewer employees, in short, in 1919, on June 30, than there were five years previous to that, in 1914, and the increase in the amount of mail-this is the Chicago office-was about 80 per cent.

Mr. BYRNES. There was a very large increase in the mail at Chicago during the last year.

Mr. FLAHERTY. I will state this: For the entire service the department's own figures show there has been, since 1913 up until the present time, an increase of but 11 per cent in the total number of employees. During that same period there has been an increase in the amount of work of about 60 per cent, indicating, to me at least, that the employee of to-day is expected to do the work of a man and a half of six years ago.

Mr. BYRNES. You know that the department asked Congress for more money to specially relieve the Chicago situation, do you not?

Mr. FLAHERTY. Well, the situation is not confined to Chicago alone. Mr. BYRNES. But, I mean, as you instanced Chicago, do you know that?

Mr. FLAHERTY. I know that the department has approved what is known as resolution 151, introduced by Mr. Madden, which would grant the Postmaster General authority to relieve conditions where they are unusual or extraordinary, but that legislation is not satisfactory, I will state, to the employees generally. They feel that the extraordinary conditions are general and the relief should be general. Mr. BYRNES. Well, I will tell you, though-if you do not know itas a matter of fact, the Post Office Department came before the

Appropriations Committee and specifically asked for a large appropriation to relieve the situation at Chicago, but all the money asked was not granted; I think it ought to have been. If it had been it would have relieved the situation as you have described it.

Mr. FLAHERTY. Yes; but the Post Office Department in its estimates for the current fiscal year, Congressman, provided for only an additional 2,500 clerks throughout the entire service. That number have already been allotted. They have been grabbed up by the larger offices largely, with the result that the department at the present time can not appoint any additional clerks and keep within its current limitation; and because of that fact this condition exists in Allentown, Pa. I will cite it as an illustration; substitute clerks are worked 8, 9, and 10 hours a day, just the same as regular employees, you understand, but they are paid only at the rate of 40 cents an hour. They are deprived of their promotion at the end of a year's satisfactory service, and they are deprived of their vacations. In short, they function the same as a regular employee, but they are deprived of promotion and they are deprived of a vacation because the department has not the authority to appoint additional clerks, its quota having been exhausted. That is a condition that the department certainly should advise Congress of, but to my knowledge it has not done so. If the department is realizing that the need for higher wage standards is apparent in the service, I am pleased to hear it.

Mr. BYRNES. I did not state that there was any statement about different wage standards. Of course, I don't know it; I only know that the Post Office Department did submit an estimate to the Appropriations Committee for quite a large amount, and in presenting it stated that its purpose was to take care of the very acute situation in the Chicago post office. I happen to remember that.

The CHAIRMAN. That was the last Post Office appropriation bill? Mr. BYRNES. I think it was about two months ago, or three months ago.

Mr. FLAHERTY. You will recall, Congressman, perhaps, that in his report to the Sixty-fifth Congress the Postmaster General then stated that the post-office employees were receiving three times the wages of the soldiers in the trenches and that they should not selfishly agitate for increases, a statement that I think was unjust and unwarranted and uncalled for.

Mr. BYRNES. Well, the soldiers send us a postal now, in which they want us to tell them whether Congress, having granted a bonus of $240 to the employees of the Government, can reconcile it with granting only $60 bonus to the soldiers.

Mr. FLAHERTY. I think you will agree that you can not compare the wage of the postal employee with the $30 a month allowed the soldiers. There is a vast difference between military service and civil employment. I think we will all agree on that point.

Mr. BYRNES. I just wanted your idea, so all of us might know how to answer these postal cards.

Mr. FLAHERTY. To continue on this particular phase of the question, I have a complaint here from Nashville, Tenn., where they are daily using overtime when there are substitutes available. Now, I will state for the information of the committee that in the last postal appropriation act there is a clear-cut inhibition against any postmaster working a regular employee overtime when a substitute

is available, but seemingly, in Nashville, at least, the legislation is ignored and our protests are vain. I think that is a subject-matter which is within the scope of the committee and warrants an investigation. Concisely, the Sixty-fifth Congress enacts legislation prohibiting a certain practice, and yet the practice is indulged in, and the department pays absolutely no attention to our protests.

I have here a very interesting chart showing the increase in overtime-this is in the Chicago office again-from 1915 to 1919. There has been an increase of 240 per cent. There is an increase at the same time in the amount of mail of close to 80 per cent, and there has been a decrease, as shown by this red-dotted line [indicating chart], in the number of clerks. The heavy black-dotted line shows the increase in overtime requirements from June, 1918, until June, 1919. In one year it has run up 200 per cent. It is conditions of that kind which are responsible in a way for the great number of resignations; they are responsible in a way for the unrest and the dissatisfaction existing throughout the service.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Flaherty, what do you know about inefficiency, delay in the mails, and congestion of the mails, resulting, as you stated in your letter to the President, in great economic loss to the patrons of the mail service?

Mr. FLAHERTY. Well, I will state that in some offices it is impossible to get carriers to cover the routes. Some routes may go uncovered all day long. In a great many offices-and Washington is one of them-the number of deliveries have been curtailed, and you can readily see that if the mail deliveries are delayed and uncertain, considerable loss results to the mail patrons; and, in turn, it affects not only the entire business community but the social relations as well between the people of the country. Delays in the mail are general, I will state, Congressman, and apply to all branches of the service. Brother Rvan, who is here representing the railway mail clerks, has quite a number of specific instances in that branch of the service. It is due-to come back again to the primary cause-to the fact that the department can not properly recruit the service here in Washington and elsewhere. In the Washington office they are attempting to use young boys in knee pants-the Postmaster General has sent down his Chinese cook and his colored coachman to help out in the evenings. But after all, help of that kind is ineffectual and insufficient. It takes, in the opinion of postal experts, fully five years to train a distributor. He acquires knowledge that is not of general application. I am not sure whether this point ever struck the members of the committee before, but the transmission of mails is a Government monopoly; there is no competing service.

A man learning the intricacies and details of the service can not apply his knowledge elsewhere; he can only work in one spot. It takes a number of years to train him; he is of great economic value to the Government in such position; he is of less value to the Government or to society out of that position; hence there is a duty upon the Government, I think, to minimize the labor turnover in the Postal Service. Men learning these details of postal work can not walk out of a post office and apply their knowledge in any private institution, because there isn't any institution exactly comparable to our Postal Service. The postal distributors-this applies to post-office distrib