representation allowances, not as compensation, but to defray the actual expenses of representing the Government. This bill will in that way carry you on for fifty years without a change in the fundamental structure of it. We are going to need it. This country, every nation, for that matter, has changed its whole position in world affairs. You do not need any statement from me to convince you of that.

But what I would stress or emphasize is that the United States has completely changed its position in international affairs and it is never going to be less important but is probably going to exceed our wildest dreams in the importance of its relation to world affairs in the future. That being so, we need the very best, the very strongest, machinery that we can get to protect our interests abroad. Our commerce is growing by leaps and bounds. Our investments are reaching all parts of the earth; our business men are going everywhere; our contacts are becoming more intimate and more numerous, and as that process goes on it inevitably follows that the chances for conflict of interest, for misunderstanding, for infringment upon our rights are going to be greatly multiplied. We have only to think of the change wrought in our international position by the Spanish-American War and then again by the revolutionary change that resulted from the World War to give some appreciation of the rapid growth of our international responsibilities. So we ought to have the most competent men we can find in every place in which we are represented to protect our interests, to resist encroachments upon our rights, to further our commerce, and to protect our citizens, and prevent misunderstanding of our motives.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Losing a man from the public service is not a total loss. In the case of Mr. Lay, who retired from the Consular Service and entered the firm of Speyer & Co., through his many acquaintances, in the various parts of the world in which he has served as consular officer, do you not think that is going to be of vast benefit not only to Speyer & Co., but to the extended banking interests of the United States?

Mr. CARR. Unquestionably so; there is no doubt of it.

Mr. LINTHICUM. So even if the Government does lose a valuable man once in a while, it is a great compensation that he has been trained to bring business to the Government.

Mr. CARR. Quite so.

My only point is not that he will not render excellent service elsewhere, because I know he will. I wish the foreign service of the United States could train more men who would find their way into international business because in every way they are most important in developing the proper relations or in knowing how to develop those proper relations in business affairs; but the point I make is that as between the two it is vastly more important for the Government to hold their services than it is for private business to have the monopoly of their services because in the Government service they serve a much broader and more numerous clientele than they can serve in business and the entire public benefits directly from their work. Our Government absolutely needs them. Your constituency, your friends and my friends in business need the help of men of that stamp as Government officials and we ought to do everything in our power to hold them in the service.

Mr. O'CONNELL. Is it true that one of the large universities in Washington has a course in diplomacy?

Mr. CARR. I believe Georgetown University has a course to prepare men for the foreign service, The American University has such a course and a number of universities; George Washington has or tends to have a course of study. Columbia, in New York, Yale, Harvard, and the University of California have already had for years departments for the training of men for foreign service.

Mr. O'CONNELL. Does the Department of State draw on those? Mr. CARR. Yes; they come into our examinations and many of them find their way into the service. Their work serves a highly useful purpose, but you can not actually train a man in an institution to be a diplomatist or to be a consul. The place where he is going to get that training is in the field dealing with the work itself. What you can do and what must be done for young men who are to enter our service, and increasingly so, is to equip them in an educational way, to teach them history, economics, and all those subjects that encourage breadth of view and grasp of the problems that they will have to deal with and, more than all, develop their ability to think and to analyze. We want men who can stand on their own feet, who can assume responsibility, men who can take charge of an office and conduct it properly without asking the department every day how it should be conducted. Men of that kind who are dependable, who have acquired a high sense of responsibility are not to be trained in a university or school. They are given the educational groundwork and taught how to study and how to work and then given their professional and technical training after they have entered the service. If I had my way about it, I should take every one of the new appointees, select them for the breadth of their education, for their personality, and their knowledge of men, bring them to the State Department and put them through a course of training.

I would, perhaps, send them out, with the consent of some good business house, and give them an insight into the way business is conducted; take him over into the Department of Commerce and ask Mr. Hoover to have him given an opportunity to find out how the Department of Commerce operates in its relation to business; I would take him through a course of lectures given by experts in their various lines and make him understand how diplomacy is carried on, how the Consular Service is carried on, how government is carried on, and how business is done. If he responded to that, if in the opinion of good judges he showed that he possessed the kind of ability which we should have in the foreign service, I should let him go into the field. If he showed himself unable to respond to the requirements, I should ask that he be separated from the service. Perhaps that course would go beyond anything we could immediately aspire to but I am sure that is capable of being made a vast improvement in the existing method of developing members of the foreign service and determining their capabilities.

Mr. LINTHICUM. That is what I had in mind the other day when I asked if there was not some method by which a man could be assigned to a position on probation to see how he develops before you finally turned him down on some examination.

Mr. CARR. In other words, that is nothing more than applying to a branch of the service the ordinary practices of business men. Mr. LINTHICUM. That is the idea. That is what you have been doing in past years?

Mr. CARR. Yes.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Can you do it under this bill in the future?

Mr. CARR. We can do anything which you gentlemen are willing to have us do, or that the President is willing to have us do under this bill.

Mr. COOPER. I have always understood that in those schools of diplomacy they trained the students in the practical workings of their profession or business a great deal as they do in the law schools when they put them in the moot courts. They give them certain facts. They are supposed themselves to learn what the law is, look it up and then on one side or the other present an argument for their respective sides, with a judge to decide on the merits of the argument. I have supposed or have been told that in these schools of diplomacy they take up historical cases, that is, the facts or imagine something akin to those facts, and then require the student to look up the law and write the dispatch which they would write if they were in such and such a position or make such and such suggestions to the other government.

Mr. CARR. That is probably the way they do much of it. But the thing that I was speaking of mainly was not that that would not serve a useful purpose, but if a man were put into the actual performance of that work and associated with men actually engaged in that work it would have the same relation as studying the French language in Washington has to studying the French language in a French household in Paris. A man would acquire as much facility in the use of the language in Paris in a French family in a fraction of the time required in Washington with an hour's instruction a day.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think it would help the average young lawyer to have not only a fair training of book law but also to have had this experience in moot court? It is a great service when well conducted. Mr. CARR. Yes; my point is that it can be done much more effectively and speedily in the way I have suggested.

Mr. ROGERS of Massachusetts. You say that the probationary system is entirely admissible under the bill that is before the committee? Mr. CARR. I think so. There is not any reason why the President can not prescribe rules and prescribe requirements that they shall fulfill before being allowed to permanently continue in the service. Mr. ROGERS of Massachusetts. If there is any doubt about that there ought to be language which will certainly permit it. I have supposed that the present text is broad enough to allow that plan. Mr. CARR. I think it is quite broad enough.

Mr. ROGERS of Massachusetts. Reverting to the specific retirement problem; on page 33 of your testimony last year you printed a table showing the retirement pay of the British consular service, which is a noncontributing service, as compared with the proposed retirement pay in this bill, and you also printed a table showing the retirement pay of the United States Army and Navy officers. I think that is of sufficient value so that if the chairman has no objection it will be well to have it incorporated in your remarks of to-day. Is there any

thing that you have to add to this table? Are they still dependable and accurate?

Mr. CARR. They are still dependable; yes, sir. I know the Army and Navy have not changed, and while I have not since last year seen that list, I have examined the British system and I feel quite certain the British tables are dependable.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

Table showing retirement pay of British consular service compared with proposed retirement pay of United States.

NOTES.-There is no contribution required from officers under British pension system. In the British service the pension is based upon salary and emoluments at time of retirement or on average for last three years if there has been a change within that period. It begins upon completion of 10 years' service, and increases by an annual increment of one-eightieth until the completion of 40 years' service, or until retirement. This applies to all officers who have entered service since September 20, 1909. officers appointed before that date receive ten-sixtieths of their retirement pay for the first 10 years' service and one-sixtieth for each year thereafter until completion of 40 years or until retirement.

All

In the British service retirement is voluntary at 60 and compulsory at 65 unless Government wishes to continue an officer in service longer, in which case it may continue him by intervals until he is 70 years of age.

At present, because of conditions resulting from the war, an additional allowance to those mentioned in the above table, which are fixed, is granted officers at a number of posts. This additional allowance is not pensionable as are those which are fixed. As an illustration, the consul general at New York, whose salary is £1,350, or $6,569.77, has a total allowance of £4,000, or $19,466, making his total compensation $26,035.77. Of the allowance only the fixed sum of £550, or $2,670.57, is included in the officer's total pensionable salary and emoluments, amounting to $9,246.34.

Included in the posts to which special allowances of considerable importance are now made are Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City, Petrograd, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Galveston, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Portland, and San Francisco. Smaller additional allowances than those at the post mentioned are also granted at many others. Pay and retirement pay of United States Army and United States Navy officers.

The CHAIRMAN. What provision have you for retirement of men from disability? For instance, we send men into the Tropics and they suffer from tropical diseases and become incapacitated from performing their duties.

Mr. CARR. The present civil service act has disability clauses in it. Your bill as it passed the House last year applied those disability clauses to the foreign service.

This section has no disability clause in it but it authorizes the President to prescribe rules and regulations for carrying out this provision, thereby enabling the President by Executive order to do under this bill those things which are necessary and not inconsistent with the principles that are laid down and made part of this bill. The disability clauses, all of them, and all the machinery set up in the present civil service retirement law are obviously not entirely applicable to the foreign service and would have to be modified in their operation because physicial examinations would have to be provided for abroad in the foreign fields, whereas the civil service retirement law provides for them in this country. There are numerous other provisions which would in their application to the foreign service be better provided by some elastic method of Executive order rather than by a statute, the actual operation of which we could scarcely foresee. It was thought wiser, and the board of actuaries think it wiser, to set up this system under Executive order of the President calling for an annual report to Congress on the operation each year on the operation of the system rather than by attempting in the bill to apply all of the provisions of the civil service retirement act to foreign service officers many of which really are not applicable.

The CHAIRMAN. You feel confident that under this bill those cases of disability can be taken care of?

Mr. CARR. Yes; and the spirit of the present civil service law given effect through Executive order.

The CHAIRMAN. In the case of a man in the service who is appointed minister, could he at the expiration of that term drop back again into the service and get his rank or status restored? Mr. CARR. As a consul general or counsellor.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; or does that throw him out of gear? Mr. CARR. I do not think it would throw him out of gear. He would have gone out of the classified service into an unclassified branch of the service. I should say probably that if ultimately he should want to do the most unlikely thing, namely, return to his classified position, that would be possible or might be made possible by the President.

Mr. COLE. I should think a provision of that kind ought to be made because such appointments as those of ministers are political appointments and a man might be in that service four years, and why should he not have the opportunity to revert to his former status?

Mr. MOORES. Would an Executive order make him eligible?

Mr. CARR. This bill particularly states that the President shall, except as otherwise provided in this bill, have the right to make Executive orders and prescribe regulations for the enforcement of the act, and I presume he would have the right to prescribe such a regulation, as he would have now, for that matter.