Senator PHIPPS. The statement that I refer to was, perhaps, regarding a location below the intake of the present canal. I can not imagine that there was any time during a season that there was not some water going through the canal into the Imperial Valley. Mr. MEAD. Oh, no.

Senator KENDRICK. The statement that was made, Senator Phipps, was supported by photographs presented to the committee here, showing automobiles traveling right across the river on the dry sand.

Senator ODDIE. Doctor Mead, what are the acreages now under cultivation in Mexico and in this country?

Mr. MEAD. About 190,000 in Mexico, and about 400,000 in the Imperial Valley.

Senator GOODING, Have they sufficient water in the Imperial Valley at the present time to farm 400,000 acres? Have they got 100 per cent water rights for the land?

Mr. MEAD. It all depends upon what the river carries. Last year the low-water flow was 1,200 cubic feet a second. The Imperial Valley needed it all, and it had to give half of it to Mexico. The result was a disastrous shortage.

Senator GOODING. And the Imperial Valley has to suffer all the time from a shortage of water?

Mr. MEAD. It will under the existing situation.

and

Senator GOODING. And with Mexico having less than 200,000, this side 400,000 acres, under present conditions that shortage of water in the Imperial Valley must grow more and more acute all the time. There is no doubt about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, do you advocate the abandonment of the canal through Mexico and the construction of an all-American canal? Mr. MEAD. I think we will have to construct an all-American canal in any event, whether we abandon the other canal or not.

Now, with regard to the other canal: If it were feasible through treaty to secure an abrogation of this contract, so that we would not be continually building up a development down there through our use of it, then I can see that there might be economy in continuing its operation in connection with an all-American canal. But an allAmerican canal for the higher country, the 250,000 acres of additional land, is a necessity, and it is a necessity if we could not through treaty provide for the satisfactory operation of the existing canal.

Senator PHIPPS. Well, Doctor, if plans were approved for the construction of a reservoir capacity that would equate the flow of the stream to the extent that the flow that could be taken through the present canal would be very dependable, the very fact of making it dependable would offer a basis for negotiation, I would say, not by treaty, but by contract with the people who are now interested in the continuance of that canal.

Mr. MEAD. Yes. I think the authorization of both the reservoir and the canal will create a situation that will be favorable to an improvement in the present contract.

Senator PHIPPS. I have strongly in mind the desirability of getting a flow of water for irrigation purposes into the highest area that it is possible to attain by gravity flow into the Coachella Valley as against any pumping proposition that could be devised. Because pumping is not economical, it is too expensive.

Mr. MEAD. No. I think that ought to be investigated. It is a matter that can easily be determined.

The CHAIRMAN. You realize, Doctor, or are you conscious of, any difficulties that might be involved in the maintenance of the allAmerican canal if completed?

Mr. MEAD. No. Just as Senator Phipps has said, you must cover it up where it crosses that area of sand, but if that is done there will be no difficulty in its operation, because it will be built on firm land. Senator PHIPPS. What would be the approximate size of that canal? Senator JOHNSON. As to its carrying capacity?

Senator PHIPPS. No; I was trying to get at the dimensions. We understand dimensions, I think, more readily than we do carrying capacity.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes; I confess I do.

Senator PHIPPS. If we had a comparison of size, for instance, with that of the Los Angeles Aqueduct it would give us some idea as to the cost of construction.

Mr. MEAD. The section through the sand hills is 140 feet on the bottom with 15 feet depth of water. Part of it will be cut through

65 feet.

Senator PHIPPS. One hundred and forty feet base through that section?

Mr. MEAD. Yes.

Senator PHIPPS. And it will carry a body of water rising 15 feet in the canal itself?

Mr. MEAD. Yes.

Senator KENDRICK. For how great a distance would the extreme depth of excavation continue, Doctor Mead? That is not material. Mr. MEAD. I can give it to you in a moment.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Mead, while your assistant is looking over those figures, let me ask you this question. What would be the water charge per acre by reason of the construction of this dam in order to divert the water from the Colorado River to the Imperial Valley?

Mr. MEAD. Part of that will depend on the contribution that will be made to the cost of this development from the development of power. If the power development can be made to pay a large part of this cost it will be small; the answer will depend entirely upon that. If irrigation had to bear the whole burden it would not be feasible; it would be too costly.

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that but have you the figures so that we may determine whether, in our opinion, it is feasible? Have you worked fit down to the cost per acre?

Representative SWING. Do you mean the all-American canal, separate from the dam?

The CHAIRMAN. I think the doctor understands the question.
Mr. MEAD. Do you mean the storage and everything?

The CHAIRMAN. No; indeed.

Mr. MEAD. Just the all-American canal? It will cost about $30,000,000, and there will be about 650,000 acres, so the cost will be something less than $50 an acre. That is not a burden that would

trouble the Imperial Valley at all.

Senator KENDRICK. Mr. Chairman, while we are waiting, I would like to ask the author of the bill, Senator Johnson, this question.

We have heard here that a 550-foot dam would not interfere with the ambitions of the people of Arizona in construction of their project higher up the river later on. As the Senator knows, those of us who were concerned about the ratification of the pact between the States are very much interested in having that adjusted before the development begins, and I am wondering if some arrangement could not be made here by which we would not interfere with their plans in the future and which would be entirely satisfactory to the people who are advocating the Boulder Canyon dam.

Senator JOHNSON of California. We would be very glad to take the 550-foot dam which the engineers say would not interfere with any of their projects in the future, if that is what you mean, Senator. Senator KENDRICK. That is exactly what I mean.

Senator JOHNSON of California. We would be very glad to. The 550-foot dam would enable us to do all of the things we think are essential and to pay out entirely the scheme.

Senator KENDRICK. And in the fullness of time allow the Government to proceed with the development higher up the river just as if your dam had never been constructed?

Senator JOHNSON of California. I think undoubtedly, sir.

Senator KENDRICK. It seems to me that some understanding like that might be reached with those people, by which they would be entirely willing to ratify that pact.

Mr. MEAD. Answering your question as to the distance, on the entire canal stretch of about 1011⁄2 miles through the sand-hill area the canal will have to be cut deep into the mesa formation. maximum cut of 65 feet would extend about 41⁄2 miles.

The

Senator KENDRICK. That seems to say on its face, if that is the distance it eliminates the artificial plan of raising the water lower down the river, that it would be more economical to take the higher elevation than to go lower down.

Senator ODDIE. What are the comparative amounts of water that could be stored back of these dams at Boulder Canyon, the 550-foot dam and the other one?

Mr. MEAD. The higher dam 34,000,000 acre-feet and the lower one 25,000,000.

I can give you some of the relative figures. The higher dam would have an available horsepower for power development of 1,525,000. Senator JOHNSON of California. When you say the higher dam, what do you mean?

Mr. MEAD. Six hundred and five feet. The two elevations are 605 feet and 555 feet. The 555-foot dam will not interfere with the Bridge Canyon site.

There is a difference between the two of something like 275,000 horsepower in the amount of horsepower that you can develop; one is 1,525,000 and the other 1,255,000.

Senator KENDRICK. Even that would be incidental to the more general and far-reaching plan of reclamation?

Mr. MEAD. Yes.

Senator KENDRICK. I think it is quite within the range of possibility that we will have that whole country irrigated in years to come without much regard to cost.

Mr. MEAD. The relative capacity will be, as I say, 34,000,000 and 25,000,000. The estimated cost of the two: The higher one, $49,500,000; the lower one, $40,500,000. That is $9,000,000 difference in cost.

The estimated cost of the dam and the power plant would be, per horsepower, $64.80 with the higher dam and $66.40 with the lower dam.

Senator PHIPPS. The present consumption of hydroelectric horsepower in California does not exceed the amount that is estimated as the capacity of the 550 dam that is proposed?

Mr. MEAD. No.

Senator PHIPPS. So that you have an enormous proposition even with the lower dam?

Senator KENDRICK. The Senator from Arizona insists that Arizona is going to use a great part of that electric power.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes; and while you were absent, Senator Phipps, the city of Los Angeles stood here officially and assured us that after the allocation of power had been made to those who desired it the city of Los Angeles would take the remainder.

Senator PHIPPS. Yes; it is quite possible they would find a market for it.

Senator GOODING. Is it not further true that the use of power increases fully 100 per cent every five years? That has been true of the city of St. Louis, at least. So we have only begun, as far as that is concerned.

Senator PHIPPS. With the development of hydroelectric plants on the river we will find our railways going to electricity for motive power instead of steam.

Senator GOODING. That statement was made before the Interstate Commerce Committee by the Milwaukee people, that the electrical development there had been practical and in the line of economy. You know, it is generally charged that that is not true. That statement was made by the president of the road.

Senator KENDRICK. Mr. Chairman, pursuing my inquiry a bit further, I want to ask the Senator from Arizona if he does not believe that some arrangement such as I have suggested in my inquiry of the Senator from California could be made, such that his people would find it possible to agree with us and come to a satisfactory conclusion in reference to that pact. My understanding was, if I might explain, that their chief objection to the bill before us was that it interfered with the development up the river later on.

Senator ASHURST. I ask unanimous consent to include into the record the message of Governor Hunt to the seventh Legislature of Arizona. In his message he discusses the proposed Colorado River compact; he discusses the Swing-Johnson bill and Diamond Creek and he sets out the correspondence between himself and the Governor of California. I ask that the same be printed in the record. The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

(The matter submitted by Senator Ashurst is set out in full at the end of this day's record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Mead, have you the bill before you? I will ask you to refer to page 9, section 10. I read, commencing with line 3:

That for the purpose of constructing said dam and incidental works, canals, and appurtenant structures, and acquiring lands and rights of way therefor, there is hereby authorized to be appropriated, from any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, such amounts as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this act, not exceeding in the aggregate the sum of $70,000,000.

Is it your judgment that sum of money would be sufficient for the purposes outlined in the section which I have just read?

Mr. MEAD. I believe that this development ought to include both the construction of the storage and the power plant. I think both should be Government properties, and that the estimate should be large enough to provide for that. The idea would be that by building both the power plant and the storage and having a unified ownership we avert a controversy that would otherwise be inevitable, and by that I mean a difference of opinion as to how the water ought to be delivered from this storage.

Its primary purpose is irrigation. To carry out that purpose would require a variable delivery from the reservoir. That does not necessarily interfere with a very large use for power, but to get the maximum use for power would mean a uniform delivery throughout the year. My view is that this ought to be primarily for irrigation, with power being incidental; and, being built with that purpose in view, it ought to be under such contral as will accomplish that

purpose.

If we build this work for power and storage as related enterprises, then the Government can sell that power at the works, leaving it to whoever buys it to distribute it and settle. That seems to be the

simplest method of construction and operation.

If that were done, the estimate for the 550-foot dam would be a little larger.

The CHAIRMAN. There would be a little increase in this amount? Mr. MEAD. Yes. The estimate for the power development is $44,500,000 and for the dam $40,500,000, or about $85,000,000. Senator PHIPPS. That is, exclusive of the canal?

Mr. MEAD. Yes.

Senator PHIPPS. The canal is $30,000,000 in addition to that? Mr. MEAD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In reading that language, Senator Johnson, I have been curious to know if the word "canals" refers to the allAmerican canal. That is on page 9, section 10. If you will observe the language, it says, "constructing said dam and incidental works, canals, and appurtenant structures." I just wondered what you expected to cover with the appropriation of $70,000,000.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That is inclusive of the canal, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Inclusive of the all-American canal?
Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes, sir.

Mr. MEAD. Under this estimate that I have here, that $70,000,000 would provide for the 555-foot dam and the all-American canal. Senator PITTMAN. Then we would have to add to that an additional amount for this power plant?

Mr. MEAD. Yes; if it is built that way.