VETERANS AFFAIRS

JOINT CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS, Friday, December 9, 1932. The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, in the minority conference room of the Senate, John McDuffie, chairman, Representative from Alabama, presiding.

Present: David I. Walsh, vice chairman, Senator from Massachusetts; Arthur R. Robinson, Senator from Indiana; Henry D. Hatfield, Senator from West Virginia; Jacob L. Milligan, Representative from Missouri; John W. Boehne, jr., Representative from Indiana; John Taber, Representative from New York; Burnett M. Chiperfield, Representative from Illinois.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Senator Walsh will be delayed a few minutes at least, and I think we might just as well start the proceedings.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Yes; I think we might just as well get started. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, you are doubtless familiar with section 701, Public Law 212, Seventy-second Congress, known as the economy act, of course, incorporated into the legislative appropriation act at the last session of Congress. With your permission I will read for the purpose of the record Title VII, section 701. This act, of course, you understand, is not sponsored by anyone of this committee. It is an expression of the majority of both Houses of Congress believing that some investigation should be made into veterans' affairs or the legislation of the Congress affecting the veterans of all wars. Indeed, many of the organizations, I am informed, representing veterans, suggested this investigation, and Congress proceeded to set up this joint committee.

The act reads-and I shall only read that part which is probably more pertinent than the rest of it:

Such committee shall conduct a thorough investigation of the operation of the laws and regulations relating to the relief of veterans of all wars and persons receiving benefits on account of service of such veterans and report a national policy with respect to such veterans and their dependents, and shall also report and recommend such economies as will lessen the cost to the United States Government of the Veterans' Administration. The committee shall report to the Senate and the House of Representatives not later than the 1st of January, 1933, the results of its investigation, together with such recom mendations for legislation as it deems advisable. The committee is authorized to sit and act, whether or not the Senate or House of Representatives is in session, at such times and places as it may deem advisable, and to call upon various departments of the Government for such information and for such clerical assistance as may be necessary, using the services of employees on the Government pay roll, and also to call upon and use the clerks of the Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, the Committee on Pensions, and the Committee on Invalid Pensions, of the House of Representatives; and the clerk of the Committee on Pensions of the Senate.

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The committee discussed informally, after organizing, the question of clerical assistance. The consensus of opinion of the committee was that for the present we would endeavor to carry out the spirit of the act as expressed by both Houses of Congress and with a view of economy endeavor to get along as far as possible without incurring any expense whatsoever. We may find it impossible to do that. Personally, I hope we may make an investigation without any great expense to the Government. Indeed, I should like to see it done, if possible, without any expense to the Government.

The committee yesterday decided to hear this morning representatives of the Spanish-American War veterans. Senator Means was in town, a representative of that organization.

Senator ROBINSON. He lives here. He publishes the National Tribune.

The CHAIRMAN. And some gentlemen from other sections of the country had signified their desire to be heard, and in order to accommodate those who had hoped to be heard without making another trip to Washington and those who had come here from distant points, the committee decided yesterday to hear them this morning. Meantime there were representatives of various veterans' organizations here and we conferred with them to get an expression of their wishes as to when they should be heard and asked whether or not they had any particular program they would like to lay before this committee; if so, when they would prefer doing so; if they preferred to come on first or last, or any time they wished to be heard, I think the position of this committee would be to hear them.

The committee, I am sure, is quite anxious, and we are seeking the cooperation of veterans' organizations. This problem is their problem as well as the problem of the Congress and we want everyone who desires to be heard, and every organization, to say the least, to have full and free opportunity to come to the committee. I am very much in hopes we may work with the spirit of cooperation which I am sure those gentlemen are willing to extend to the committee. There is no desire on the part of any member of this committee to take unfair action or to work an injury to a single ex-service man. Certainly, I know of no man whose mind is closed on the subject in that regard. Our sole purpose is to carry out, as I take it, the mandate of the Congress in making this investigation. There is no plaintiff, no defendant. This is not the trial of a criminal suit. We are going to approach this thing as a fact-finding body, sitting more or less as a judicial body, and then endeavor to do whatever the majority of the committee sees fit along the lines indicated in the act.

Senator ROBINSON. I was going to suggest, some representative of veterans' organizations talked to me about it. They take the position they have certain vested rights given to them by the Congress. If those rights are attacked, then let those who attack the rights or who suggest any decreases of benefits be heard by the committee. There is nothing else for the veterans to do except listen, see what the charges are against them. It may not be a criminal proceeding, it seems like it may get to be like that. They should be given every consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. They are going to have every consideration.

Senator ROBINSON. What is the order of taking the testimony? The CHAIRMAN. There is no order.

Senator ROBINSON. What is the order of the day?

The CHAIRMAN. I was just going to get to that. The committee thought that it would be well to get a picture, if possible, of the present set-up as it affects all veterans. In other words, before we could deal with the subject it might be well to understand it, in fact, entirely necessary to know something about it. Therefore, we decided to call General Hines, Administrator of Veterans' Affairs, and ask the general to-day to give us a picture of veterans' affairs, what his administration is doing, the cost, and when he has done that, of course, in short, that covers the whole picture, and with the permission of the committee we are ready to proceed with the general. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Administrator of Veterans' Affairs, if you gentlemen are ready to proceed.

STATEMENT OF GEN. FRANK T. HINES, ADMINISTRATOR OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS

(Accompanied by J. O'Connor Roberts, Solicitor)

General HINES. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, this subject has been under study in the Veterans' Administration for some time. I have tried, in preparing the information placed before the committee, to so arrange it as to give the committee the basic information in order that they will thoroughly understand the problems as they come up. We have previously furnished to the committee certain basic data, a study of the existing laws and the inequalities that seemed to exist in them; and I have prepared and will give to the committee, if it meets with your approval, what I consider the first part of a statement that I would like to make on the subject.

I have divided my statement into two parts, the first being somewhat historical in the first part of it and leading up to the organization as it now exists, what we are spending and the beneficiaries we now have on the rolls. In the second part I make definite recommendations to the committee, divided into two groups, the first group consisting of those matters I believe the committee and the veterans' organizations can agree upon. In the second group I have included certain suggestions for the study and consideration of the committee that will undoubtedly be very controversial and take considerable time. For that reason I feel they should be put into the second group. If the committee finds insufficient time to go over them now they can go on to some other time.

With your permission, therefore, and in order that you may have a record to go on, I would like to proceed if possible with my statement without interruption, and then submit to such questions as the committee desires to ask. My statement on this subject covers so many activities that manifestly it will be a long statement. However, I can omit No. 1. I will be glad to have copies of the statement distributed

Mr. TABER. Wouldn't it be well, Mr. Chairman, if we have these copies now?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

General HINES. I will be glad to have the copies distributed now. If I may proceed in that manner, Mr. Chairman, it will be best for the committee and all concerned.

STATEMENT ON VETERANS' RELIEF LOOKING TO THE ADOPTION OF A NATIONAL POLICY, BY GEN. FRANK T. HINES, ADMINISTRATOR OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS

Much has recently been said about the Federal Government's efforts in the matter of veterans' relief. Not all that has been said is based upon facts; therefore, many of the conclusions reached are erroneous. However, it is my conviction that in justice to all concerned, the taxpayer as well as the veteran, the existing legislation governing veterans' relief must be coordinated, classified, and simplified, and it is my hope and belief that your committee will be instrumental in bringing this about. Such action seems desirable not only because of the necessity for strict economy in national expenditures, but because of the administrative necessity to simplify operative procedure.

The problem we are considering dates back to the birth of our Nation, and even longer. There really is nothing new about it. Patriotism had the same qualities then as now. Human suffering was just as poignant and the methods of alleviating it were paid for from the same source the people. The history of our pension legislation shows that our gratitude has borne a fixed relation to our prosperity. In good times abundant provision has been made for the ex-service man. In hard times no extension, but even retrenchment has followed.

There are those who are led to wonder whether the exceptional prosperity of the latter years of the first decade following the World War did not lead us to a generosity which, in the long run, will prove burdensome or even impossible of continuance.

Before taking the subject up in detail, I am sure it will be of interest to review somewhat the history of governmental relief given veterans as well as to trace the history behind the Federal Government agency now charged with the administration of the many laws dealing with this complex problem.

The CHAIRMAN. General, may I interrupt you? Several gentlemen representing the press have asked me if they may have a copy of this. Have you any objection?

General HINES. It is perfectly agreeable to me if the committee has no objection.

Mr. TABER. Our hearings are to be public, as I understand it. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, this is a public hearing and the public will know about it. I see no objection.

General HINES (reading):

HISTORY

From the foundation of our Federal Government-and even during the Colonial period-provision has existed for the extension of some form of relief to the ex-service men who have served in our Army, Navy, and Marine Corps and who have become disabled in line of duty as the result of such service. At varying periods after each war relief in the form of pensions has been extended irrespective of any service-connected disability.

1624: In our own Colonies, that of Virginia first officially recognized its obligation. As early as 1624 the following resolution was passed:

"That at the beginning of July next, the inhabitants of every corporation shall fall upon their adjoining salvages, as we did last year. Those that shall be hurte upon service to be cured at the publique charge; in case any be lamed, to be maintained by the country according to his person and quality."

This act, I might add, was ineffective for lack of approval by the mother country.

1636: In 1636 the Plymouth Colony took similar action; and the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1703.

Similar provisions were made by the other Colonies, but almost without exception they were offered as an inducement to enlist and were considered a part of the pay. In the Maryland Colony a certificate from the county court