We now have the prospects of financial support which will make it completely possible and we are building a staff, in fact.

Senator CLARK. Will that be foundation support?

Mr. GARDNER. We will get some very substantial support from the Ford Foundation. We will match this with support from industry and other foundations.

Senator CLARK. I have no doubt the Carnegie Foundation will be in it, too.

Mr. GARDNER. Well, I think they may.

Mr. LINTON. Senator, in the period from August until Mr. Gardner became chairman, you and others would be amazed at the amount of time which participants on the coalition steering committee gave to the coalition. We had a staff that amounted to only two or three paid people and a half dozen other borrowed people. Men like Andrew Heiskel of Time, Inc., spent enormous amounts of their personal and business time on the coalition. Hardly a day went by when we weren't in telephone conservation, hardly a week went by that he didn't have two or three meetings.

This was true of the mayors that were involved, very much involved to the point that one said he would have to cut it out because he was getting in trouble at home.

I think you would be amazed to know the amount of personal time that men like Heiskel, David Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Arthur Flemming, and Walter Reuther and others put in on the coalition in the several months after the convocation.

Senator CLARK. That is encouraging. I want to thank each of you gentlemen for the real contribution you made, particularly you, Mr. Gardner. I wonder when you give us the listings of those 33 local urban coalitions if you can give us some indication of the extent to which they have paid staff. This is very important.

Mr. GARDNER. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. Senator Javits unfortunately could not be here today. He is keenly interested in your testimony, Mr. Gardner. He was very disappointed he could not be here. He has sent in some questions which may or may not have been answered. I have asked the very able staff assistant, Mr. Patricelli, to see if there are any of those questions which should be asked. If so, ask them.

Mr. PATRICELLI. Gentlemen, briefly, the Senator has asked me to convey his regrets he could not be here and he sends his personal regards to Mr. Gardner.

As you may know, he has been interested for some time in the idea of creating a group at the national level which would provide technical assistance to the various private groups at the regional and local level to help them engage in antipoverty and antislum activities. He has felt that right now the willingness of business and private groups to enter into this field exceeds their information about how to do so and that some kind of technical assistance group would be most useful.

At present, however, there are several such groups springing up in many different cities.

There is some degree of confusion as to where the businessman should turn or on whose board he should serve. Do you think it would be useful to consider placing a legislative base under, and perhaps

some Federal money on a relatively no-strings-attached basis into, a national technical assistance group of the type I am describing?

Mr. GARDNER. I think it would be very useful. I haven't the slightest doubt about it. The need for filling this technical assistance function is just as clear as anything can be. There are people all over the country today who are, in fact, trying to find the kinds of answers which such a group could give.

If no such move is made, the Urban Coalition will have to try as best it can, with its limited resources, to serve as a clearinghouse for technical assistance of one kind or another, not that it would set itself up to do a technical assistance job, but it would try to serve as a clearinghouse in a communication link so that it could put those who need the information in touch with those who have the resources of information. Of course, there are such today.

A number of the Government agencies have, in fact, technical assistance functions, although they do not put as much time and effort into them as they might. Some universities, some groups such as Rand and others are resources in this respect, but my view is that an effort of the sort described by Senator Javits would be very fruitful.

Mr. PATRICELLI. Have you had the opportunity to study the Economic Opportunity Corporation proposal and do you think it is properly drafted to serve this kind of need, or do you think there are changes which you would like to suggest?

Mr. GARDNER. I have had the opportunity to examine it only briefly. But in my opinion it is a good proposal.

Mr. PATRICELLI. I wonder, Senator Clark, if when Mr. Gardner has the opportunity to study it further he would be willing to submit comments for the record.

Senator CLARK. I will leave that up to him.

Mr. GARDNER. I will be glad to do so if on further study I have other comments, although I must say that my present reaction is favorable. Mr. PATRICELLI. Mr. Gardner, another question: How might the Congress facilitate the work of the urban coalition? For example, would it be useful for Federal legislation to be drafted so as to allow grants to a nonprofit national organization such as the coalition to provide technical assistance or to allow it to dispense seed money?

Mr. GARDNER. No, I think that this would not be necessary. I do not think of the local organizations as operating bodies. There is a multiplicity of operating organizations at the local level, some of which would certainly be useful objects of such funding or could provide the base for a technical assistance operation. Local coalitions might very well take the initiative in spinning off a local technical assistance operation, but I would not think of the coalitions as themselves a network, a technical assistance network.

Mr. PATRICELLI. A question for Mr. Sheppard. Mr. Sheppard, Was your survey conducted strictly with city agencies, public bodies?

Dr. SHEPPARD. It was sent to mayors, Mr. Patricelli, of the 50 largest cities over 100,000.

Mr. PATRICELLI. In that case, isn't it true that it represents the ability of city governments to provide employment for persons in the job areas treated but it does not necessarily represent the priorities for service needs?

94-753-68- 13

Dr. SHEPPARD. We did not ask the mayors to rank them, if that is what you mean, that is true.

Mr. PATRICELLI. But you would expect that other areas that might not now be receiving city action might spring up as having a high priority for service needs such as neighborhood rehabilitation-if different persons or groups were asked?

Dr. SHEPPARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. PATRICELLI. Mr. Gardner, you suggested that one available means of increasing the effort in the urban filed would be for Congress and the executive branch to undertake budgetary cuts in the lower priority areas. There have been several such suggestions, Senator Clark made one last week, as to how this might be done. Would it be appropriate for the Urban Coalition to suggest low priority areas and budget cuts in its position as an objective and neutral group and to submit those to the Congress?

Mr. GARDNER. I don't think that is a very appropriate thing for use. In a coalition which involves such disparate elements we have to be extremely disciplined about the things that we want to try to seek

consensus on.

In fact, we have had extraordinary success so far in finding a few big, central, terribly important things to on which we could build that consensus. I don't think we want to add to that list without giving great attention to the priorities. I think there are other things that would claim our attention before this kind of effort.

Mr. PATRICELLI. Just two more questions. You made reference to the need for funding public service employment programs through State and local government. Of course, you have had a great deal of experience in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare with State plan arrangements and I know that you have done a good deal of thinking about creative federalism. What kind of role for State governments do you think would be advisable in a new employment program of this type? Would you advocate any kind of limited State plan or arrangement for some percentage or all of the funds involved?

Mr. GARDNER. I would not like to see a State plan that involved all of the funds. I think the pattern outlined, as I remember it, in the Javits' bill was in fact quite a workable arrangement. Am I correct in thinking 40 percent of the funds?

Mr. PATRICELLI. Yes.

Lastly, would you care to make any general comments about the bill which Senator Javits and 75 other Republicans introduced last week or would your prefer to submit more detailed comments for the record later?

Mr. GARDNER. I would prefer to submit comments for the record because I would like an opportunity to study it further.

Senator CLARK. That may be done.

Mr. PATRICELLI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CLARK. Thank you ever so much, gentlemen.

The subcommittee will stand in recess until Wednesday at 10. (Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, April 3, 1968.)

EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING LEGISLATION-1968

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 3, 1968

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMPLOYMENT, MANPOWER,

AND POVERTY OF THE COMMITTEE ON

LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 4221, New Senate Office Building, Senator Clark (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Senators Clark, Pell, and Prouty.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk; John F. Forsythe, general counsel; Eugene Mittelman, minority counsel of the committee; William C. Smith, counsel; Michael W. Kirst, professional staff member; and Robert Patricelli, minority counsel of the Subcommittee on Employment, Manpower, and Poverty.

Senator CLARK. The subcommittee will resume its hearings.

Our first witness this morning is the Honorable James H. J. Tate, mayor of Philadelphia and chairman of the National League of Cities.

Mayor Tate, we are very happy to welcome you here today. You have a well-deserved reputation for being well versed in all of these problems of poverty, emergency employment, and we are very happy to have your views.

I see you have a prepared statement which you perhaps would like to read.

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES H. J. TATE, MAYOR OF PHILADELPHIA AND CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIES, ACCOMPANIED BY RICHARD OLANOFF, MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR EMPLOYMENT; AND PATRICK MCLAUGHLIN

Mayor TATE. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. Please proceed. We will have the entire statement printed in full in the record.

Mayor TATE. Thank you, Senator.

I am pleased, of course, to address you as the chairman of the Subcommittee on Employment, Manpower, and Poverty in these times when the eyes of the Nation are on this particular subject.

I do thank you for the courtesy of appearing before your subcommittee and inviting me here today, especially after we have had such a successful enterprise in Pennsylvania last night and on both ends of the State, both in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, which I trust will be to your advantage.

I appreciate the fact that you have invited me as the mayor of a city of which you had the honor of leading just 15 years ago and which, of course, you sparked to a program of reform and renaissance which has redounded to our credit.

I come to the committee today as the mayor of Philadelphia, which is the fourth largest city, and also as the president of the National League of Cities which represents close to 15,000 municipalities across the Nation.

Senator CLARK. Those are all sizes, aren't they?

Mayor TATE. That is correct. We refer to them as the cities, the boroughs, the townships, and the villages.

We would like also to refer to them as the big city where most of the problems are. I am also on the Steering Committee of the National Urban Coalition with whose program I am sure you are now acquainted.

We, also, in Philadelphia, have organized the Philadelphia Urban Coalition.

Senator CLARK. Let me interrupt you to say that we had some perfectly splendid testimony the day before yesterday from John Gardner, the former Secretary of HEW, and now the Chairman of the National Urban Coalition. He told us that local urban coalitions had been organized in some 33 cities and undertook to send us a list of the names and numbers of the players.

Do you have them in Philadelphia?

Mayor TATE. Yes, sir, we do. I am happy to say we organized as early as February 15. We have now developed what are known as task forces which are very actively engaged in the entire program in Philadelphia.

Senator CLARK. Can you give me in very general terms the nature of the leadership, civic, labor, business, and the like?

Mayor TATE. The leadership follows the pattern of the urban coalition and the convocation which was organized in August 1967.

At that time by men like Henry Ford, Walter Reuther, and Mr. Randolph, Bayard Rustin, Whitney Young, and so many others that were engaged in the leadership in the educational field and religious field, and we had the same kind of leadership in Philadelphia which has engaged the attention of the business leadership as well as of labor and of the people in the disadvantaged areas.

Senator CLARK. Can you give me a few of the names of the leaders? I don't mean all of them. You know I come from there, too.

Mayor TATE. I understand. Our original convocation was chaired on several occasions by Dr. Gladfelder, chancellor of Temple University; and Dr. Bruce Waldon, associate with our manpower program. Both of them are representatives but they work very close with us in this kind of thrust in the community.

We have some of the younger element among the Negroes and the disadvantaged poverty areas who are working very actively with us Some names that people would not very well remember but they are active in the Philadlephia program. We have, of course, the labor people headed by Mr. Kelly and Mr. Touhy, and men like Mr. William Ross, who is very active.

As a matter of fact, Mr. William Ross has already sent contributions to the program.